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 Megasquirt for Dummies: 20v 4AGE [No 56k]First  < 23 24 25 26 27 >  Last
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wrenchdad


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339 posts [100%]
Natchez MS

 Re: (rc.square24) » Reply  Edit


Is there a reason that you want to use a Microsquire instead of going with a full size unit? Just wondering, as you stated that you have not purchased any parts yet and with the MS3+MS3X all these things that you are asking for the Micro to do can be done and then some with the above combo.

Just asking, I mean, what if later you want to control a fan or want better idle control. I used that circuit with my MS1 and MS2 builds on my 20V and it does work but its not in the same ballpark with the control that you can get with MS3X, having the AC feed forward/delay really fixed my AC kickon issues. You may not be using AC but whatever the case, you will be somewhat limited on any additional functions that you may want to do later.

just my 2 cents, you are the one doing the install so you know your needs.
later wd



" Second place is just the first loser" the late Dale Earnhardt
Russ




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758 posts [100%]
Lawrenceville GA

 Re: (rc.square24) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by rc.square24 »
That wont be a problem running with batch fire injection right (2 injector outputs on uS)? (both injectors and spark working in alternating pairs)

No, nothing wrong with batch injection. If you pair your injectors correctly you could actually run semi-sequential injection from the dual fuel bank outputs. Think of semi-sequential like wasted spark ignition (pairing the cylinders that share TDC events), it just sounds bad to call it wasted fuel.

Quote, originally posted by rc.square24 »
So it will be able to read the 20V CAS straight from the 4 pins (I read I only need one G and Ne, GND so 3). Would it be a problem that G1, G2, Ne in stock wiring shares the same ground?

Absolutely. You're right you'll use the NE signal and only one G signal. The grounds for all three VR sensors in the CAS or distributor base are common through one wire. I usually bring that wire back to the sensor return (sensor ground) wire the ECU offers.

Quote, originally posted by rc.square24 »
One other thing is VVT control, would the Microsquirt be able to have an output for that? I see no spare output pins in the manual but only two spare inputs, and notes of the capability of ACCEL and WARMUP LEDs being used for output.

WLED and ALED (warmup and accel LEDs) are your relay or solenoid ready outputs. There are no LEDs on the MicroSquirt so the accel enrich LED and the warmup enrichment LED found on the conventional MegaSquirt ECUs aren't there. You may purpose these outputs as you wish. Since the 20V VVT is only on / off these outputs can control it just fine. You can choose just one condition such as either RPM or TPS, or you can combine two conditions by either and / or, such as TPS & RPM, RPM & MAP, TPS or MAP, etc..

Quote, originally posted by rc.square24 »
As for the PWM ISCV I see a circuit schematic posted in this thread for driving it with FIDLE, uS will work with this add-on I assume?

That circuit looks fine. We have one that does the same thing here:

There's no extra room to build this circuit inside the MicroSquirt so you'd have to build it between the MicroSquirt and the idle valve. Another option I'm not too fond of (but much easier to use with the MicroSquirt) is to ground the "close" side of the idle valve through a high wattage resistor and then treat it like a 2-wire PWM valve.

apexi3016
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8 posts [100%]
Lahad Datu Sabah

 Re: No Spark. (wrenchdad) » Reply  Edit


Hi there WD,

Appreciate your reply.

Roger that, will flash the latest firmware, start with a clean sheet and will report back.

Cheers.

rc.square24
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326 posts [100%]
Vancouver BC

  » Reply  Edit


Thanks for clearing that up Russ

@Wrenchdad: I've been looking into MS on and off but I've only recently noticed that theres a Microsquirt around that seem to be able to handle what I want for the engine (or for things I can think of so far), that comes assembled with a harness for a decent price. I see the sense in your advice of the ability to add more things later on, and I'll still consider the full size options as I read more or figure if I would want more for the future.

I'll certainly come up with more questions for you guys!

Thanks.

foonix


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65 posts [100%]
null null

 Re: No Spark. (apexi3016) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by apexi3016 »

1. when i turn the key on (power to MS). all three LED's light up. i'm not sure if this is normal. When i crank i can see the LED's flicker ever so slightly.

2. All COP's fire once, when the power is turned on to MS. Not good as it ignited the fuel in the cylinders and had a fireball thru the exhaust. I Verified this by removing each plug, grounding it and turning the key on, for all four plugs.

I'm running a MS2e COP setup with the coil driver circuits built in such a way that I had to set "Spark Output" set to "Going Low (Normal)" and have the same #1 and #2 observations. I think this is because the output pin on the CPU defaults to "low" which is the coil charge position, and after the OS boots it changes the output "high" (where it should be when not running) which fires the coil if it was low long enough. The time the coil is charging before the OS boots might be long enough to fire the coil I'm using (honda R16 coils, wasted spark).

I'm not sure the best solution, but some options are to rebuild the drive circuit to work with "Going High (Inverted)" or to power the coils off of the fuel pump relay (or a relay activated by the fuel pump relay).

When I got my car to the point where you are (fireball when keying on, steady RPM while cranking) the next thing I had to do to get it run was get the timing in the right ballpark. To get it right I bolted the #1 coil upside down and used a scrap sparkplug wire and some electrical tape to connect it to the plug, then a normal timing light worked. My initial conclusion about the tooth 1 angle turned out to be something like 120 degrees off. It fired up once I got it anywhere within about 5-30 BTDC.

Good luck!

wrenchdad


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339 posts [100%]
Natchez MS

 Re: No Spark. (foonix) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by foonix »

When I got my car to the point where you are (fireball when keying on, steady RPM while cranking) the next thing I had to do to get it run was get the timing in the right ballpark. To get it right I bolted the #1 coil upside down and used a scrap sparkplug wire and some electrical tape to connect it to the plug, then a normal timing light worked. My initial conclusion about the tooth 1 angle turned out to be something like 120 degrees off. It fired up once I got it anywhere within about 5-30 BTDC.

Good luck!

I was able to use my inductive timing light on my COPs by just clamping it to the signal wires coming to # 1 COP, there was enough signal to trigger the light just fine. I put the pickup around all three wires, hot, ground and signal. No problem.

I will have to do some digging but I have read "somewhere" about the firing of coils at "key-on" issue and you are correct just coming off the LEDs causes this, like you stated because of the state of the MS outputs. I will try to find the link and post it, it was not a BIG circuit change, thinking just added an additonal transistor. Just can't remember the type/part number.

later wd

Edit: Its midnight here but here is the link, long read but has the addtional links in it about the circuit changes http://www.msextra.com/forums/...30959

later wd



" Second place is just the first loser" the late Dale Earnhardt
lowg


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37 posts [100%]
Richmond BC

  » Reply  Edit


Hi all,

I just realized as I am trying to upgrade my MS2 to run COPs for my 20v instead of the EDIS ignition system, I can't find any info on how to get a tach output for this type of setup.

I ran the diodes off the two negative terminals on the EDIS coil pack, and it ran the tach perfectly.

Now, if I replace these coils with the toyota COPS, it doesn't look like I can do the same thing.

I'm planning to run the COPS in wasted spark mode to keep things simple for now (maybe sequential in the future, but I don't see much gain from that)

How are you guys running your tachometers?

I am looking at the ZEAL card, it mentions that there is a tach output that works for RX7s... would that work for the OEM ae86 tach?

Thanks!
LGM

wrenchdad


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339 posts [100%]
Natchez MS

 Re: (lowg) » Reply  Edit


I know this thread is long but the info that you are looking for is in it, look at page 6 toward the middle where I was talking to Cich69 there are a couple of links in my message about getting the dash tach to work.

I used the ciricuit in the manual plus the zener BUT I have heard that the earlier dash tachs can be driven with just a 12vdc square wave signal, SO you can use the simplier circuit from the links and if that doesn't work add the relay coil and the zener diode.

later wd



" Second place is just the first loser" the late Dale Earnhardt
AE86Taylor




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267 posts [100%]
Warner Robins Georgia

 Re: (wrenchdad) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by wrenchdad »
Ok, that should be correct but what I am concerned about is that you said that the coils got real hot once and that may have damaged the transistors that drive the LEDs.

SO how about this for a test, seeing you don't have a stim, unplug all spark and injectors. Then save your MSQ then reconfig your setup to a stock dizzy spark setup, in other words, do not use the LEDs for spark. do a burn and restart, and lets see if the LEDs will do their normal functions. Just to see if they will turn on and off. D14 would be used for injectors and D16 is for accel shot. I think you will get at least a quick flash of the injector when it does the priming pulse and if you set up your accel to TPS then you should be able to see it work also.

try that and lets see if the transistors are still working, later wd

Sorry for the long time before replying. Been really busy. Ok, I unplugged my coils and injectors. However, without changing anything, the lights do give a quick flicker and go out as soon as i turn the key. And now with the car in run, the lights are staying off. But, when i hook a meter to pins 6 and 36 and turn the key to run, I am getting a constant 5v whether I try start the car or just turn the key to run.



My daughter's web pagehttp://madalynswalk.tripod.com
Sponsored by http://www.diyautotune.com


Madalyn Clare Lively 23 SEP 2004 - 03 FEB 2005
"There are those who have dreamed of angels, but I have held one in my arms."

wrenchdad


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339 posts [100%]
Natchez MS

 Re: (AE86Taylor) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by AE86Taylor »

Sorry for the long time before replying. Been really busy. Ok, I unplugged my coils and injectors. However, without changing anything, the lights do give a quick flicker and go out as soon as i turn the key. And now with the car in run, the lights are staying off. But, when i hook a meter to pins 6 and 36 and turn the key to run, I am getting a constant 5v whether I try start the car or just turn the key to run.

Ok, but these are supposed to be ground switching outputs. SO something doesn't seem right. That ia why I suggested do the befroe mention test to see if the LED would perform as they should when NOT used as spark outs. Unless you have a stim now? IF not, then reconfig your spark setup like I suggested, leave your coils and injectors UNPLUGGED, setup your ACCEL for 100% TPS. The accel Led should flash when you give a quick stab of the throttle.

And lets see if the LEDs will light up like they are supposed to to verify that the transistors are not burnt up, OK? While they are on you can connect a meter to one of them and the other lead to 12vdc and see if you get battery voltage. That will show they are ground swicthing as they should be.

let me know what you find. later wd



" Second place is just the first loser" the late Dale Earnhardt
AE86Taylor




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267 posts [100%]
Warner Robins Georgia

 Re: (wrenchdad) » Reply  Edit


Will do man. Thanks.



My daughter's web pagehttp://madalynswalk.tripod.com
Sponsored by http://www.diyautotune.com


Madalyn Clare Lively 23 SEP 2004 - 03 FEB 2005
"There are those who have dreamed of angels, but I have held one in my arms."

AE86Taylor




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267 posts [100%]
Warner Robins Georgia

 Re: (wrenchdad) » Reply  Edit


Ok. Finally got a chance to mess with the car. I changed the settings to what you tools me to and the LED D14 is still on. But D16 is not. However, D16 wont blink during cranking cause there is no longer an rpm signal after changing the setting to a stock dizzy. So I don't know how to test it. When I change the settings back to D14 and my trigger wheel, both LEDs come back on as before and stay on. Setting the ignition to going low normal has caused the 5v however to now show 0v when the key is turned, so that's nice. But now when I try to crank the car, the 0v only go up to 0.5v. So would that say that the transistor is not working like you said? I bought 2 new ones just in case. thanks again for the help.

Taylor



My daughter's web pagehttp://madalynswalk.tripod.com
Sponsored by http://www.diyautotune.com


Madalyn Clare Lively 23 SEP 2004 - 03 FEB 2005
"There are those who have dreamed of angels, but I have held one in my arms."

apexi3016
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8 posts [100%]
Lahad Datu Sabah

 Re: No Spark. (apexi3016) » Reply  Edit


Hi guys did post this up on the MS forum too,

This is what i did so far:

1. stripped out all the old wiring loom, separated everything, removed all unneeded wires and re-did it with braided sleeving. Not sure if it helps, but looks good.
2. Removed the Bosch coil drivers and using the 2N4033. I've got spark for all four COP's now without the spark when the key is turned. So thats sorted.
3. Got my #1 tooth angle which came to 12.5 degrees and 372 degrees. I did it for both G/cam sensors. I am unsure which is G1 and which is G2 on the dizzy but wired it to green wire on the dizzy. can someone please point it out?
4. Re-flashed to 3.2.1.

And below is what i get when cranking:

1. When cranking and checking for the cranking advance the timing seems to be jumping/wondering all over the degree wheel and does not want to stay put. It does stay put sometimes but rarely. This done with the injectors unplugged.
2. the spark plugs get wet bad, but that should be the case due to a couple of attempts trying to start but FAILING.
3. My spark C LED seems to be staying on all the time, i checked spark on CYL#4 and it seems to be fine. What I understand is all three LEDs should stay off when the engine is not running and all should alternately flicker when cranking/running.

My fuel pump was not turning on when we were cranking it yesterday, it had issues previously like it would ground for too long/or never stop grounding when the ignition is turned on. sometimes the relay would flicker. i thought it was the software or my settings kept reflashing the ECU thinking that was the problem. After searching the forum found out that Q2 is the culprit. Will need to change that out.

Thats about it, a whole lot of cranking but no start at all.

muythaibxr


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1035 posts [100%]

 Re: No Spark. (apexi3016) » Reply  Edit


I don't think the Tachref program is compatible with MS2/extra.

You should be using the composite logger function built into TunerStudio.

Ken

apexi3016
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8 posts [100%]
Lahad Datu Sabah

 Re: No Spark. (muythaibxr) » Reply  Edit


Hi Ken,

posted my composite logs in the MSE forum but forgot to post it up here.. thought i did.

Here's the composite logs i've got.



wrenchdad


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339 posts [100%]
Natchez MS

 Re: (AE86Taylor) » Reply  Edit



Quote, originally posted by wrenchdad »
Ok, but these are supposed to be ground switching outputs. SO something doesn't seem right. That ia why I suggested do the befroe mention test to see if the LED would perform as they should when NOT used as spark outs. Unless you have a stim now? IF not, then reconfig your spark setup like I suggested, leave your coils and injectors UNPLUGGED, setup your ACCEL for 100% TPS. The accel Led should flash when you give a quick stab of the throttle.

And lets see if the LEDs will light up like they are supposed to to verify that the transistors are not burnt up, OK? While they are on you can connect a meter to one of them and the other lead to 12vdc and see if you get battery voltage. That will show they are ground swicthing as they should be.


Quote, originally posted by AE86Taylor »
Ok. Finally got a chance to mess with the car. I changed the settings to what you tools me to and the LED D14 is still on. But D16 is not. However, D16 wont blink during cranking cause there is no longer an rpm signal after changing the setting to a stock dizzy. So I don't know how to test it. When I change the settings back to D14 and my trigger wheel, both LEDs come back on as before and stay on. Setting the ignition to going low normal has caused the 5v however to now show 0v when the key is turned, so that's nice. But now when I try to crank the car, the 0v only go up to 0.5v. So would that say that the transistor is not working like you said? I bought 2 new ones just in case. thanks again for the help.

Taylor

Ok, lets go thru this again, because I don't think you understood what I wanted you to do, FIRST when I said "restart" in my first reply I was NOT talking about trying to start the engine, that will NOT work when you have changed your setup to a stock dizzy when you are wired for COPs, ok? I was referring to restarting the MS unit by doing a power cycle. That has to be done when you change your spark setup. DO NOT try to start the engine with the wrong spark setup!

NOW the LEDs, D14 normal function is for showing when the injectors are firing, so if its ON all the time when you reconfiged for a dizzy setup(non-COP), then I would have to say the transistor is bad for D14, like you said NO RPMs then it should only give a quick flash for priming pulse then turn off and stay off without any RPMs.
D16 is for ACCEL, so if you set your accel up for 100% TPS with some workable numbers for accel shot then worked the throttle with the key in "RUN" and D16 never came on then its transistor is bad too.

Replace the transistor for D14 and D16, make sure you have the spark output set correctly OR you can burn up the transistors again, I "think" for MS2 using LEDs for outputs, that would be going low (normal) BUT read the manuals for LED spark setup and be sure.

later wd



" Second place is just the first loser" the late Dale Earnhardt
foonix


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65 posts [100%]
null null

 Re: Megasquirt for Dummies: 20v 4AGE [No 56k] (turbo4agte) » Reply  Edit


After looking to build the IAC circuit in this thread, I realized it could be built without using the prototyping area by modifying the Zeal board slightly. My version uses the PWM idle setup on the megasquirt v3, the PWM idle output on the Zeal board, and an unused relay control from the Zeal board as a signal inverter. The MS built-in fast idle circuit is used to form the opening circuit (RSO), and the Zeal board forms the closing circuit (RSC). I've tested this on my car and so far so good.

Using irf540 or TIP120's for the 4AGE 20v IAC seems to be overkill. The IAC should pull just under 1A per side. The MS's built in f-idle transistor is rated for 1A, so we just need an uprated transistor for more overhead. A ZTX688B-ND like the one that comes with the Zeal board is 3 amp and has the same pinout, so it should work as a drop-in replacement. I used a VB921 just because it is what I had laying around.

Here is the circuit diagram: (WARNING: I am a total electronics scrub! Critiques or bug reports appreciated!)
http://i.imgur.com/800qB.png
For comparison here is the original:
http://img.photobucket.com/alb...2.jpg

What is needed:
* The Zeal Engineering megasquirt daughter board http://www.diyautotune.com/tec...y.htm
* An additional 1k resistor.
* A diode to add to the megasquirt's built in PWM idle circuit. A diode (1N4001DICT-ND) will be removed from the zeal board and can be recycled for this.
* A spare output on the MS harness chosen to become the closing circuit.
* An uprated transistor to replace Q4 on the MS. A TIP120 is overkill (but OK). A ZTX688B-ND should work and drop straight in.

Building the circuit:
1. On the Zeal board, pick an unused relay output and remove its diode. For this guide, we'll use IN4/OUT4, which uses D4.
2. Replace the removed diode with a 1k resistor.
3. On the MS, modify the board for PWM idle according to step 62 from the assembly guide. (http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/V3assemble.htm)
3a. Remove Q20 and D8 (optional?)
3b. Remove R39 and replace it with a jumper.
3c. Replace Q4 as discussed.
4. Solder the non-banded end of a diode to the right side of D8, where the banded end of D8 was previously. Solder (using a jumper wire if desired) the banded end to S12, which is a 12v power source nearby, or any other 12v power source. It may be easier to do this on the bottom of the board. The diode removed from the zeal board can be used for this step. Note this diode does not fully replace D8, I.E. do not connect the banded end to the left pin of the D8 slot.
5. Solder a jumper wire from the bottom of R19 on the MS to IN4 on the Zeal board.
6. Solder a jumper wire from OUT4 to IDLIN.
7. Solder a jumper wire from IDLOUT on the zeal board to an output of your choosing. I used IAC 1A, which corresponds to pin 25 in the harness. Any IAC or SPR pin should work.

External wiring:
1. Wire the B/W (RSC, "left" pin) wire on the IAC to the harness pin chosen in the previous step (IAC1A = pin 25).
2. Wire the B/L (RSO, "right" pin) wire on the IAC to pin 30 on the harness (F-Idle)
3. Wire the B wire (+B, "center" pin) to a 12v power source controlled via relay. This should probably be a relay controlled by the fuel pump relay to prevent the IAC from running while the engine is stopped but the key in "run." Running off the same relay as the injectors/coils should also work.

Some notes:
* It will NOT idle with the IAC in the fully closed position. For initial startup testing, try setting the Algorithm to "On/Off" and the temperature high enough to force fast idle ON.
* If using the ITB mode code, the PWM idle setting changes may muck with the "ITB load TPS switchpoints" graph, and may need retuned.
* The default PWM settings cause the IAC to moan. The frequency probably needs adjusting.

Please let me know if you see any potential issues with this setup.

Since this thread is long, should I create a new post for this? The info in this thread could fill an entire forum.

Modified by foonix at 2:22 AM 5/8/2012

mattsautoparts
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10 posts [100%]
lexington pa

  » Reply  Edit


hi im matt im putting a blacktop in to my 86 i bought the motor with out harness or ecu for $450

my 16 valve is now knocking something horrible so iv stopped driving it i have about $600 cash or more if needed i want to get this done fast since i race solo in the scca and the seasons already started. i want to know every thing im going to need to get this done besides the water lines ill take care of that. i want to use megasquirt and i want it to work rite and not use old outdated stuff i want coil packs preferably coil on spark type and i dont care to soder any of this together. ill post pics later i wouldent even mind getting in touch over the phone with the smartest person on this matter to get this done. note i want to get his ordered by the end of the week if at all possible.
and sorry if the info's allready there, just 26 pages is a lot to make sense of. im new to standalones but there no fabrication stuff i wont try iv been a mechanic for over 12 years im 25 and iv been welding for 10. and some of the hack jobs iv seen with this megasquirt stuff makes me think this cant be too hard, so lets bring it on.

thanks




Modified by mattsautoparts at 11:14 AM 4/5/2012



go fast or not at all


Brust




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237 posts [99%]
Arlington VA

  » Reply  Edit


I've been lurking here as well- it would absolutely kick ass if we could get one of you guys who has the going to do a detailed write up so we could get this in the tech section, or better yet, on DIYautotune's site. I know there are many ways to skin this cat, so it might not be feasible, but it would sure make me more comfortable- not that any of you owe us MS weaklings anything. I haven't got on it, because I am pretty apprehensive about the electronics, and don't want the old MG to become any more garage art than it already is!


wrenchdad


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339 posts [100%]
Natchez MS

 Re: (mattsautoparts) » Reply  Edit


I would suggest that you get a hold of DIYAutoTune and let them know what you want to use on the motor as far as spark and fuel. They can have the Megasquirt unit already config for your engine and loaded with the latest code too.
Super great guys to work with.

I would suggest going with a MS3 unit with the MS3X addon expansion board, that will have all the needed outputs for full seq spark and fuel plus outputs for the VVT if you are going to use it plus outputs for fan controls thru relays.

I would also suggest a Wide Band O2 sensor and controller for tuning.

You can also get the needed wiring harnesses from them but you may have to source the various connectors that you will need from a local pull-a-part.

hope this helps
later wd



" Second place is just the first loser" the late Dale Earnhardt
Brust




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237 posts [99%]
Arlington VA

  » Reply  Edit


I was wondering about that- do you think they have a good idea of the exact specific needs of the 20v? I know their technical expertise is likely unparalleled in the MS world, but my concern was that they may not have that depth of knowledge on this particular engine as you, Muythai, and Dr. Hess have.
wrenchdad


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339 posts [100%]
Natchez MS

 Re: (Brust) » Reply  Edit


Well, that would be a good reason to get a hold of them and ask, don't you think? There isn't anything that special about the 20V, just needs an output for the VVT solenoid, two inputs from the dizzy, four spark outs and four injector outputs, all but one of those go to the MS3X board, the only one that doesn't is the primary tach input which goes to the mainboard.

If I remember right they have a question list that you fill out and allows them to config the MS to your engine, then all you have to do is the tuning end of things, each engine is different in tuning, things like exhaust, air intake, map readings, all come into play for tuning.

let me know if you need a base tune file, supply me with an email address I and will shoot one your way.

later wd



" Second place is just the first loser" the late Dale Earnhardt
mattsautoparts
Member



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10 posts [100%]
lexington pa

 Re: (wrenchdad) » Reply  Edit


i think so to thats what iv been told to im going to do that. i all ready have a innovate wide band new in the box, it that what you mean o2 controller for tuning. i allso have part if the harnness like all the plug ends.

my friend is telling me to get a haltech he seems to think he can get one for around $600 i understand thats a deal. im not sure which one hes talking about. but i saw the haltech sprint 500 it says its for high empendace injectors only will that work. i noticed you talked about the vvt is that hard to control with standard standalones? heres a link to that
http://www.haltech.com/index.p...t-500
i rode in a car today with a standalone and it ran like crap jerking around it just ran bad but made great power a turbo sc300. i really dont want that with this stock blacktop. what im asking is wich one MS or haltach for a good following for the help when i need it. note i would be getting the haltach from a local dealer if thats worth anything. lol im just trying to spend my money wisely. thanks



go fast or not at all


wrenchdad


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339 posts [100%]
Natchez MS

 Re: (mattsautoparts) » Reply  Edit


Well, If you get a haltech then how do you think the MS peeps will be able to help you? I know nothing about a Haltech but have been messing with all three versions of the MS for about 7 years SO your call BUT any stand-alone HAS to be tune no matter what you pay for it !! Even having a supplier next door won't do you any good if they don't know how to tune your engine and I can tell you that these engines with ITBs are some of the hardest engines to tune !!!!

Look at the link for Haltech, didn't see where they had anything special for these ITBs engines, I have tried going with just MAP for load, very hard to do high loads and of course going just TPS for load gives it a hair trigger at low loads BUT this new ITB load option gives the best of both worlds and lets you tune on ONE fuel table too !! Plus you have one of the main software guys who owns a 20v so that is not something you will get with a Haltech. Also going with the latest MS unit the MS3 + MS3X will give you a LOT of growing room with outputs or the ability to use the MS unit on a different engine if the needs ever comes up later, like a V6 or V8 with full seq fuel and spark, the Haltech to linked CAN NOT do that.

BUT like I said it is YOUR call on what brand you go with.
later wd




" Second place is just the first loser" the late Dale Earnhardt
rc.square24
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326 posts [100%]
Vancouver BC

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I went with the N76 DIYPNP from DIYAutoTune. I did the same before ordering and emailed Matt, very helpful and responds quickly. I'm not sure if they'd be able to provide you with a unit that has code loaded for the 20v as they're still looking for a test mule to make a map out of (at least thats what he told me a month ago).

The unit is pretty much assembled and working fine on the bench but i've yet to try it on the car due to it being a DD and lack of time from school.

Many will tell you that the ecu is as good as the person tuning it so I guess it depends whether or not you have someone familiar with the system (in my case I do around here, as I'm a total newb at MS).

mattsautoparts
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10 posts [100%]
lexington pa

 Re: (wrenchdad) » Reply  Edit


yeah i didnt relize that the haltech wouldent work on v6 or v8. so would it be best to go ms2 or ms3 if the ms3 is worth paying the little extra like the spark being 16x16 im not sure what that it maybe just like a finer adjustment of spark through out the rev, idk

what am i looking at with price diffrance whats the price of ms2 and ms3? understanding that ill get the ford edis somewhere else i think i saw one for aroung $60. or is there another option fpr spark pick up thats better?
im sure when i call them that will be a big part in were i go with this, ms2 or ms3?
if i do go with haltech there going to have to sell me that thing to me and for a good price. lol

and thanks again



go fast or not at all


wrenchdad


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Natchez MS

 Re: (mattsautoparts) » Reply  Edit


Now, I didn't say the Haltech would not do a V6 or V8, I said that it would not do those engines using FULL seq fuel and spark, from the link it didn't seem to have enough spark and injector outputs to handle more than 4, at least not that model.

As far as pricing goes, there is about a $100 diffence between the MS2 and MS3 without adding a MS3X into the mix. Using the MS3X makes it simple to run full seq on spark and fuel, just wire up the correct wires to the coils and injectors.

As far as spark inputs, I am using the stock dizzy sensors for both crank and cam position sensors without any issues, SO there is no need for a Ford EDIS unless you just want to go that way plus that only gets you a crank sensor, for full seq you will still need a second sensor for cam position.

Like I said its more than just price, its the support that you get from MS, code writers that spend countless hours writting code, some of it JUST for the 20V engines, which I did NOT see any thing for a ITB engine on the Haltech site.

BUT again like I said its YOUR call on what brand you get, BUT I would really, really suggest you find out what level of support you will get before you decide.

later wd



" Second place is just the first loser" the late Dale Earnhardt
Brust




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Arlington VA

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I'll check in to the DIY PnP- there is probably enough information in this (giant) thread... was just thinking it would be cool if we could condense. Problem really is that there are almost too many options to really condense to one post. The complexities of the 20v are as follows (correct me if I'm wrong):

-ignition setup: Requires two VR circuits for stock distributor (daughter board unless build on the proto board). Are there still crosstalk issues or is that sorted simply by using special wire?
-idle air control: Requires driver for three wire: Do we need the three wire or does two work, and do we need the daughter board or circuit on proto board?
-VVT actuation: Requires circuit: Do you need a relay or another daughter board?
-Map reading: getting a steady reading requires one of a number of remedies (fuel filter, mig tip, accumulator type device).

Options:
-Coil on plug: Seems popular, but requires different wiring scheme: Why do you want this as opposed to leaving the stock distributor/wires in place? Just for engine clearance in the rear?

Tuning:
-ITB's make tuning complex
-Mixed Speed Density and alpha-N is still a little black magic to me.
-how do you integrate turbo into this tuning scheme?

I don't want to waste anyone's time- the point is that there are so many different solutions to each of these issues that it's hard to tell (from a reliable source) what works and what doesn't.

wrenchdad


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339 posts [100%]
Natchez MS

 Re: (Brust) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by Brust »
I'll check in to the DIY PnP- there is probably enough information in this (giant) thread... was just thinking it would be cool if we could condense. Problem really is that there are almost too many options to really condense to one post. The complexities of the 20v are as follows (correct me if I'm wrong):

-ignition setup: Requires two VR circuits for stock distributor (daughter board unless build on the proto board). Are there still crosstalk issues or is that sorted simply by using special wire?
-idle air control: Requires driver for three wire: Do we need the three wire or does two work, and do we need the daughter board or circuit on proto board?
-VVT actuation: Requires circuit: Do you need a relay or another daughter board?
-Map reading: getting a steady reading requires one of a number of remedies (fuel filter, mig tip, accumulator type device).

Options:
-Coil on plug: Seems popular, but requires different wiring scheme: Why do you want this as opposed to leaving the stock distributor/wires in place? Just for engine clearance in the rear?

Tuning:
-ITB's make tuning complex
-Mixed Speed Density and alpha-N is still a little black magic to me.
-how do you integrate turbo into this tuning scheme?

I don't want to waste anyone's time- the point is that there are so many different solutions to each of these issues that it's hard to tell (from a reliable source) what works and what doesn't.

Ok, I can answer most of these..........

Spark setup, yes to have full seq fuel and spark need two VR input circuits, Using MS3 + MS3X has two circuits built in, one on main board and one on MS3X

Idle Air control-circuit included on MS3X, just run wires and tune

VVT actuation-can be control from several spare outputs, requires a "med" current output, if using MS3X for injectors then could use one board injector channel, more than enough current to handle VVT solenoid

Map reading, yes with whatever stand-alone will need to have a restrictor between accumlator/fuel filter to smooth out signal into MS unit

COPs use- higher output spark, removes dizy cap and wires which are hard to source and helps with RWD installations, Big plus for going boosted hotter spark

Tuning- ITBs are HARD to tune BUT with the ITB mode of LOAD makes this much, much easier! Get the load curves correct, normal tuning using either VEAL or MegaLogViewer. Been daily driving one of these for several years and over 100k miles, tried just about all options there were to use to tune with and this ITB mode rocks !!!!!!! THANK YOU Ken !!!!!

later wd



" Second place is just the first loser" the late Dale Earnhardt
foonix


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65 posts [100%]
null null

 Re: Megasquirt for Dummies: 20v 4AGE [No 56k] (turbo4agte) » Reply  Edit


Ran into an issue with my tach circuit. I built the relay coil style circuit using the Zeal board's tach driver circuit, replacing the resistor with wires running to an external relay. It drove the tach just fine, but I wound up with a lot of noise in my 2nd VR circuit, which is also built on the zeal board. I think I over saturated the ground on the board. I wanted to check where it was going wrong but my oscilloscope chose that day to stop sweeping. I'm not sure if it is EM interference or ground bounce.

Regardless, the problem was fixed by putting a resistor in series with the relay to bring the current down. With a 1K ohm resistor, there was not enough current to drive the tach. I'm using a 580 ohm right now but it would probably work anywhere from 100-600 ohm. It still generates the necessary voltage spike just fine. Tach tracks just fine, but is about 40-80 rpm high from the tuner studio readout.

TL;DR: If you are using the stock tach, use the relay coil based circuit from the megamanual, but you may want to put a resistor in series with the coil to reduce power consumption and noise.

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