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 Blacktop 20V 7AGE running lean
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Jinxd
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2 posts [100%]
Adelaide Sa

 Blacktop 20V 7AGE running lean Reply  Edit


Problem:
car starts well idles fine. If you slowly increase throttle car runs fine.
If you give decent throttle it's good till 16% then it carry's on and you can hear a change in engine note etc. then it slowly gathers rpm but its very dull and not right. Also running very lean It's also worth mentioning that the issue isn't consistent and appears at other points in the rev range at random

Engine:
20v 7AGE.
AE111 management. With COP's. also has oem coil and igniter . error codes thrown are.
No O2, No speed signal.

What we have tried:

New fuel. New plugs.
Checked cam and ignition timing. Adj fuel pressure reg, set to good pressure.
Different ecu. Different map sender. Throttles balanced etc.
All wiring bells out correctly.

My question is.
Could the knock sender be faulty and throwing the ecu into a limp mode even though it isn't throwing a code?
Anything else people suggest I check?

Thanks guys



Grant
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3656 posts [86%]
San Jose ca

  » Reply  Edit


The blacktop ECU is very sensitive to having a fully functioning o2 sensor. That is a must. I didn't have a speed signal and the fueling was fine. The knock circuitry in my opinion is overly sensitive and I have had issues with the ECU pulling timing prematurely. Install a high quality o2 sensor and try it out. If you still aren't happy I HIGHLY recommend you upgrade to a programmable ECU - you will most likely see big performance gains.



Stand Alone ECU tuning. Message me for details.

Looking to buy a corolla manual rack and a TRD 3 gear transmission.
*also wtb 4 point roll cage/bar for ae86 coupe

soulshadow


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120 posts [100%]
Fayetteville AR

 Re: Blacktop 20V 7AGE running lean (Jinxd) » Reply  Edit


Your problem is that your using an AE111 ECU. Which is not TUNED for a 1.8L Block. Get yourself a wideband and a fuel controller and TUNE the motor.
gaijin_rokurunner




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1990 posts [100%]
UPPER MARLBORO MD

 Re: Blacktop 20V 7AGE running lean (soulshadow) » Reply  Edit


try changing your fuel pressure to 44psi...or upgrading your fuel injectors to the 1jz injectors
jim20


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245 posts [100%]

 Re: Blacktop 20V 7AGE running lean (gaijin_rokurunner) » Reply  Edit


What method are you using to correct the change in the camshaft timing that happens when the blacktop head is fitted to the taller 7a block.
Grant
Member



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3656 posts [86%]
San Jose ca

  » Reply  Edit


good point ^



Stand Alone ECU tuning. Message me for details.

Looking to buy a corolla manual rack and a TRD 3 gear transmission.
*also wtb 4 point roll cage/bar for ae86 coupe

rachithav
Member

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47 posts [100%]
Colombo Western

 Re: Blacktop 20V 7AGE running lean (jim20) » Reply  Edit


Is it mandatory to have an adjustable cam gear on the Ex side to correct the timing on a 7AGE 20V with BT pistons with AE111 ECU?
Currently my engine runs fine and I feel the VVTi activation as well.(Not checked yet with a light).
Great if you could shed some light on tuning my engine. Can I avoid an Adjustable Cam gear if I use a E-manage, or do I need both?
foonix


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65 posts [100%]
null null

 Re: Blacktop 20V 7AGE running lean (rachithav) » Reply  Edit


The AE101 ecu uses a AFM to measure the airflow. Since AE111 ecu does not have a AFM, it has to estimate based on TPS, MAP, and most importantly, what it programmed with about the flow rate charactaristics of the head and block. Since the block is changed to 7A, the guess will be WAY off. No matter the cam situation you will need a new ECU. At best it will not be taking full advantage of the block. At worst it will have serious detination problems due to lean condiditons.

Goodle "speed density tuning" for more information.


yoshimitsuspeed
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286 posts [100%]
Carbondale Co

 Re: Blacktop 20V 7AGE running lean (rachithav) » Reply  Edit


If you research the other 7A threads you will see that it is mandatory to compensate for valve timing. This is a mechanical issue and completely irrelevant to engine management. The taller block causes your intake and exhaust cam timing to be off. The best solution to this is getting the crank end timing belt gear re keyed at the proper clock. This fixes position of both intake and exhaust cam, allows you to keep the VVT with it being timed right and if you put a cam gear on the exhaust cam allows you to start at true zero.

I would agree that aftermarket engine managment is best but it may be possible to get it to run quite well on the stock ECU if you are able to tune with fuel pressure and injector size.
If the motor has a similar VE map this might be enough. If it has a much different VE map then you may still run lean in areas and rich in others. This would be nearly impossible to tune around without some sort of aftermarket system.


Quote, originally posted by rachithav »
Is it mandatory to have an adjustable cam gear on the Ex side to correct the timing on a 7AGE 20V with BT pistons with AE111 ECU?
Currently my engine runs fine and I feel the VVTi activation as well.(Not checked yet with a light).
Great if you could shed some light on tuning my engine. Can I avoid an Adjustable Cam gear if I use a E-manage, or do I need both?




http://matrixgarage.com/
AW11
E51
Blacktop, all stock internals
4AGZE ECU, 3SGTE AFM, 4runner coil, DSM T25, 1JZ 380CC injectors, W2A IC
gaijin_rokurunner




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1990 posts [100%]
UPPER MARLBORO MD

 Re: Blacktop 20V 7AGE running lean (yoshimitsuspeed) » Reply  Edit


http://www.nagisa-auto.com/pro....html 7a kit that solves all your timing issues
morgan
Member



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6446 posts [93%]
just be glad your not here, nj

 Re: Blacktop 20V 7AGE running lean (gaijin_rokurunner) » Reply  Edit


dont you need a special intake pulley for the VVT delete? that looks like its for a 16v only. nice find either way, for some odd reason, im contemplating building a 7a block for my 20v



haha cali...i got one of you 86's, and your not getting it back.
my 20v in an 86 swap guide
my mess of an 86...
*east coast toyotas forum*
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.
gaijin_rokurunner




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1990 posts [100%]
UPPER MARLBORO MD

 Re: Blacktop 20V 7AGE running lean (morgan) » Reply  Edit


thats for 16v 7ag but Im sure if you contact them they can make you a pulley then again ive seen a 20v with two exhaust side looking pulleys, I think if you use custom cams that dont use vvt they can eliminate that part of the cam...i dont like the piston to rod ratio as it kills the rev ability the 4a is known 4....so instead of a 7age you have a twin cam 7afe...I prefer the stroker cranks myself..
yoshimitsuspeed
Member

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286 posts [100%]
Carbondale Co

 Re: Blacktop 20V 7AGE running lean (gaijin_rokurunner) » Reply  Edit


If you get the clocked crank gear you should be able to keep the cam gears along with the intake side VVT. You could add an adjustable gear on the exhaust side if you really wanted to have the little bit of extra tweakability.



http://matrixgarage.com/
AW11
E51
Blacktop, all stock internals
4AGZE ECU, 3SGTE AFM, 4runner coil, DSM T25, 1JZ 380CC injectors, W2A IC
gaijin_rokurunner




Offline

1990 posts [100%]
UPPER MARLBORO MD

 Re: Blacktop 20V 7AGE running lean (morgan) » Reply  Edit


If you dont use cams that require VVT you dont technically need a VVT delete pulley

rachithav
Member

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47 posts [100%]
Colombo Western

 Re: Blacktop 20V 7AGE running lean (yoshimitsuspeed) » Reply  Edit


Wow, I was not aware on the crank gear thing! Can you show some pictures and details on how you do it and by how much you clock it. Do you fill the existing slot and re-slot it?
After getting the mechanical timing corrected,
1.what about Injectors, same BT (297cc)
2.ignition timing
3. 7AGE matching spark plug part numbers (Can I use BT ones?)
4. does fuel pressure needs to be adjusted.(by installing Adj Fuel Reg)
Although I've done the 7AGE without knowledge of these, I look forward to get the max out of the engine and not get it damaged.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
gaijin_rokurunner




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1990 posts [100%]
UPPER MARLBORO MD

 Re: Blacktop 20V 7AGE running lean (rachithav) » Reply  Edit


That clocked gear thing is not necessary...it might be the proper way to set it up but nobody who has actually done a 7ag that has done that...there are kits and build threads out there that can answer all your questions do your research and you should be good to go
yoshimitsuspeed
Member

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286 posts [100%]
Carbondale Co

 Re: Blacktop 20V 7AGE running lean (gaijin_rokurunner) » Reply  Edit


Actually people have done the clocked gear. There is lots of info on just how much you need to clock it on MR2OC but it may take some searching or posting in the swap section.
fevil has done it but I couldn't find a good post explaining it.
There is this thread which may have the info in it.
In the last post currently fevil says he has a slotted gear available.
http://mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=206960&page=3

You really just need to find out how much it needs to be clocked. A good machine shop should be able to broach it no problem. You won't need to fill the other keyway, they will just spin it to a new section with good meat.

You either need to do this or you need to get adjustable gears. Personally I think it's ridiculous to get rid of the VVT so in my opinion this is the only way to go.
Many people have built 7As without addressing the timing issue but many people have also built 7As and wondered why they gained so little. If you don't do it right it's not worth doing at all.




http://matrixgarage.com/
AW11
E51
Blacktop, all stock internals
4AGZE ECU, 3SGTE AFM, 4runner coil, DSM T25, 1JZ 380CC injectors, W2A IC
wrenchdad


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339 posts [100%]
Natchez MS

 Re: Blacktop 20V 7AGE running lean (rachithav) » Reply  Edit


Here is a company that sells a modded crank gear for your engine combo.

http://www.mrpltd.co.nz/produc....html

I have one of their stroker kits coming for my engine build.

later wd



" Second place is just the first loser" the late Dale Earnhardt
gaijin_rokurunner




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1990 posts [100%]
UPPER MARLBORO MD

 Re: Blacktop 20V 7AGE running lean (wrenchdad) » Reply  Edit


Good find probably save u a few hundred from having a machine shop figure it out...that stroker they sell is nothing new Japan already sells a 8 bolt setup like that. Personally i think its a waste to buy that, you will save a lot using custom 7a rods, stock crank and getting custom pistons with the 7a characteristics but 4ag specific crown..nothing is wrong with the 7a crank thats just my opinion...
 



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