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 7age 20v?
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v33sonata
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393 posts [99%]
Phoenix az

 7age 20v? Reply  Edit


I know some ppl have done it. Being I am thinking of doing a 20v swap and have a fully forged 7a block I was thinking of swapping out the pistons and throwing the 20v head on it. Have many ppl done this yet? Any known issues? Does the 7a block still rev to 9k? lol.
Thanks
V33



Help me clean out the garage. Lots of 4age, 4agze, 20v and turbo parts for sale. Ask and I probably have :)


gaijin_rokurunner




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1990 posts [100%]
UPPER MARLBORO MD

 Re: 7age 20v? (v33sonata) » Reply  Edit


You can do it...reving to 9g might be pushing your luck on stock crank and rods but its also not impossible. There are kits in japan that make the hybrid engine swap very easy...i know of a shop that sells bigger cam gears, belt and light weight flywheel...the bigger cam gears correct the timing issue from having a taller block then the 4a. Loyning makes a 7ag setup you can contact them for info or parts they might help you out.
yoshimitsuspeed
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286 posts [100%]
Carbondale Co

 Re: 7age 20v? (gaijin_rokurunner) » Reply  Edit


If you want a reliable setup I would try to stick to about 7500 with stock 7A rods. If you are willing to take the risk then go ahead and push it and see what happens.




http://matrixgarage.com/
AW11
E51
Blacktop, all stock internals
4AGZE ECU, 3SGTE AFM, 4runner coil, DSM T25, 1JZ 380CC injectors, W2A IC
Crownvicman289




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1984 posts [58%]
Colorado Springs CO

  » Reply  Edit


Sounds like a cool idea, but you'll get more kick by making what you have now run properly and then crank up the boost. If you go 20V, you'll need a standalone anyway, so might as well get one now, right?
v33sonata
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393 posts [99%]
Phoenix az

 Re: (Crownvicman289) » Reply  Edit


Rods are not stock. They are h-beam rods in the 7a block. Why do I need a stand alone for the 20v swap?

Modified by v33sonata at 4:26 AM 12/2/2012



Help me clean out the garage. Lots of 4age, 4agze, 20v and turbo parts for sale. Ask and I probably have :)
v33sonata
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393 posts [99%]
Phoenix az

 Re: (SidewaysEightSix) » Reply  Edit


DOH!! oh man u should should get ur facts strait. MS was installed and removed (before I posted for sale)... . . . . . plz sidewayseightsix no more responces cause clearly u are about a year behind on your facts and have NO clue on what you are talking about nor are up to date on "my last build" also try reading my posts instead of assuming what I am doing. Did I say anything about a 7agte 20v? Nor have I ever blamed mistakes on anyone.........lol.

Modified by v33sonata at 4:32 AM 12/2/2012



Help me clean out the garage. Lots of 4age, 4agze, 20v and turbo parts for sale. Ask and I probably have :)
v33sonata
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393 posts [99%]
Phoenix az

 Re: (v33sonata) » Reply  Edit


to clear up my last post why is a MS needed (specificlly a 20v to ae86). The turbo motor had a number of tuning issues with MS installed. I got rid of alot of the turbo stuff already and dont want to go the turbo route again. The car din't really need more kick. The 20v is kinda going backwards I know. However something diffrent would be nice. The plan would be to have the 20v 4age running before even attempting the 20v 7age. I am open to other swaps if anyone has idea's?



Help me clean out the garage. Lots of 4age, 4agze, 20v and turbo parts for sale. Ask and I probably have :)
v33sonata
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393 posts [99%]
Phoenix az

 Re: 7age 20v? (gaijin_rokurunner) » Reply  Edit


who is Loyning google search shows nothing??



Help me clean out the garage. Lots of 4age, 4agze, 20v and turbo parts for sale. Ask and I probably have :)
gaijin_rokurunner




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1990 posts [100%]
UPPER MARLBORO MD

 Re: (v33sonata) » Reply  Edit


Ladies lets stop the fighting...post your questions and we will post answers or advice... What u decide to do from there will reflect in the outcome of your build. Sideways is right the 7a is not as rev happy as the 4a. You will obtain your peak torque and hp before rev limit with the 7a so thats probably where u want to set your rev limit...there are aftermarket 7a cranks out there that allow for you to rev as much as you want but you will pay for it. If you want to rev to 9g find a hks stroker crank and swap that into your 20v block. Like i said theres the correct way to do the 7age 20v but your going to have to frankenstien it as you go. If you use the 16v head theres a kit that allows u to bolt everything right together...another thing i noticed is when u swap 4a pistons in they dont come up to exactly a zero deck height so u might have to deck the block or c/r will be low
v33sonata
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393 posts [99%]
Phoenix az

 Re: (SidewaysEightSix) » Reply  Edit


"You are also going to have to take into account that vvt will no longer work on a 7a block due to needing larger aftermarket cam gears. So getting a 20v running on a stock 20v 4a block is not going to help 1 bit in "getting it running first.". You should think of them as two totally separate builds. Furthermore you are going to run into an even worse fitment issue than the stock 20v motors due to the taller block. You should really, really, consider a COP ignition setup. You are going to have the same issue with your water lines as well. SamQ's kit might be the best bet"

much better



Help me clean out the garage. Lots of 4age, 4agze, 20v and turbo parts for sale. Ask and I probably have :)
v33sonata
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393 posts [99%]
Phoenix az

 Re: (gaijin_rokurunner) » Reply  Edit


cool. Good info. Just seeking everyone's advice as it just came to me and was wondering if its possible.



Help me clean out the garage. Lots of 4age, 4agze, 20v and turbo parts for sale. Ask and I probably have :)
yoshimitsuspeed
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286 posts [100%]
Carbondale Co

 Re: (SidewaysEightSix) » Reply  Edit


The 20v does not need bigger cam gears. It does require reclocking the cam gears. This can be done with adjustable pulleys which will eliminate the VVT but it can also be done by getting your crank gear keyed with the proper clock. With this method you can keep your VVT gear which I would highly suggest.

I probably shouldn't argue that you don't need aftermarket engine management. I mean it is ideal. It will be the best way to maximize the potential of your setup but it's definitely also not mandatory.
With a frankenstein build like this I would be more tempted to go with an AFM ECU because it will do a better job at compensating for VE changes.

It's true that Toyota didn't design an ECU for this setup but they did design ECUs able to compensate for a wide range of variables. Much of the rest can be tuned with AFM adjustments or injector size and or fuel pressure.
I am confidant I could get a 7A 20v NA or just about any other frankenmotor running at an OEM level of performance with little trouble. That doesn't mean there isn't plenty left on the table that you could gain with after market management.

The ECU doesn't care what your displacement is so whether Toyota designed an ECU for a 1.8 liter 4A is irrelevant. The ECU only cares about how much air is going into the engine. This makes things simple on an AFM motor. You add 13% more displacement and the AFM will measure 13% more air going into the engine. If the VE maps move around a little bit the ECU will see the change in airflow and compensate accordingly. There really is little that would need to be done. If things were a little off you could make changes to the AFM or fuel flow to have some control over pulling it back in.

A MAP based system would be a little more challenging. If you add 13% more displacement the ECU has no way to see the increased air flow. This is easy enough to fix. Add a little more fuel pressure or a little bigger injector and it should look a lot better. The problem is changes to the VE map.
If the motor goes from 85% VE to 90 % VE at 4k RPM and from 90% to 80% VE at 7K rpm then the pre-existing fuel maps will no longer be right. It may be close enough to still be fine or it could start running too lean in places or too rich in others.
MAP based systems work great on engines that won't be changed or with ECUs that can be fully programmed. They don't adapt as well to VE changes so this is why I would lean towards an AFM setup on a project like this.



http://matrixgarage.com/
AW11
E51
Blacktop, all stock internals
4AGZE ECU, 3SGTE AFM, 4runner coil, DSM T25, 1JZ 380CC injectors, W2A IC
v33sonata
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393 posts [99%]
Phoenix az

 Re: (SidewaysEightSix) » Reply  Edit


So I see......... I liek the next post tho. More informative and mostlikely correct.



Help me clean out the garage. Lots of 4age, 4agze, 20v and turbo parts for sale. Ask and I probably have :)
v33sonata
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393 posts [99%]
Phoenix az

 Re: (yoshimitsuspeed) » Reply  Edit


Thats what I was thinking for the most part. Either way the 4age 20v will be installed while I prep the 7a block..... If I feel its needed. I really appreciate the advise I also feel a stand alone for this is nto mandatory but to get the most out of what I got then its worth it. I definatilly appreciate the advice as I do everyone on here.



Help me clean out the garage. Lots of 4age, 4agze, 20v and turbo parts for sale. Ask and I probably have :)
gaijin_rokurunner




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1990 posts [100%]
UPPER MARLBORO MD

 Re: (v33sonata) » Reply  Edit


Im not a fan of MS I use the adaptronic 420d which has all the features if not more then MS and very cost friendly....plenty of people over seas have used them on 4ages so theres plenty of maps out there to get you running...check them out..
yoshimitsuspeed
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286 posts [100%]
Carbondale Co

 Re: (v33sonata) » Reply  Edit


I just need to know, if you had a turbo 4A why you would choose to move away from that to an NA with less power and less potential?



http://matrixgarage.com/
AW11
E51
Blacktop, all stock internals
4AGZE ECU, 3SGTE AFM, 4runner coil, DSM T25, 1JZ 380CC injectors, W2A IC
v33sonata
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393 posts [99%]
Phoenix az

 Re: (yoshimitsuspeed) » Reply  Edit


in short ...... http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=113097



Help me clean out the garage. Lots of 4age, 4agze, 20v and turbo parts for sale. Ask and I probably have :)
n0tis 82


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26 posts [100%]
City of Wind IL

 Re: (v33sonata) » Reply  Edit


Yeah im piecing together my build 7a bottom end, st head and pistons with stock 4age head gasket is said to make 11.2 or 11.3 to 1 static compression ratio, te51levin did the calculations. My goal is to get it running as normal as possible with a stock 20v ecu the rekeyed crank gear and afpr. I would think the bt ecu would have an easier time with the 7age because it was tunned for a engine with 11.0:1 engine and the st is 10.5:1 but like yoshimitsuspeed mentioned the st can be adjusted with afm adjustments but the st also has a more conservative ignition curve. I dont think there is any info on this because everybody seems to go standalone after doing 7a.

So if youre going to be using pump gas and the oem ecu, I would try to keep your compression ratio around 11.0:1. Good luck with your build.

yoshimitsuspeed
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286 posts [100%]
Carbondale Co

 Re: (v33sonata) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by v33sonata »
in short ...... http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=113097

Was it an expensive BB turbo or something?
I still really don't understand. If you have all the peripherals for a turbo why not just buy a cheap turbo and run boost. It will be faster and have more potential than anything NA that you build. I can understand why someone would want to put a 20v or a 7A or a 20V 7A in their NA 4A powered car but you already had something that had a lot of potential and you decided to go another direction just because you got a good offer on the turbo you had?



http://matrixgarage.com/
AW11
E51
Blacktop, all stock internals
4AGZE ECU, 3SGTE AFM, 4runner coil, DSM T25, 1JZ 380CC injectors, W2A IC
yoshimitsuspeed
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286 posts [100%]
Carbondale Co

 Re: (n0tis 82) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by n0tis 82 »
I would think the bt ecu would have an easier time with the 7age because it was tunned for a engine with 11.0:1 engine and the st is 10.5:1

That half a point of compression really doesn't make any significant difference. For example I am running an 11:1 BT on boost on a 8.1:1 GZE ECU. It's much more valuable that I am running an ECU tuned for boost than one tuned for high compression.



http://matrixgarage.com/
AW11
E51
Blacktop, all stock internals
4AGZE ECU, 3SGTE AFM, 4runner coil, DSM T25, 1JZ 380CC injectors, W2A IC
v33sonata
Member

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393 posts [99%]
Phoenix az

 Re: (n0tis 82) » Reply  Edit


I'll keep this in mind. I think I am going BT. But If I decide to do the 7a I will def be using a stand alone.



Help me clean out the garage. Lots of 4age, 4agze, 20v and turbo parts for sale. Ask and I probably have :)
v33sonata
Member

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393 posts [99%]
Phoenix az

 Re: (yoshimitsuspeed) » Reply  Edit


To anwser your question yes it was a BB turbo and pretty much broke even on it. OK the long story the turbo motor was running well just not as good as I wanted it to. I bringing it back to basics. My original intent was to sell the hole car and be done. But then I relized I can make more money parting it out. During parting it out I decided I wanted to keep the car. However I dont want soemthign I cam consistantly working on and cant enjoy. So my anwser was a stock BT. Still powerful enought for fun and reliable. ( I have already done the turbo motor, a 4agze swap and full bolt on 4age) As I was parting out the 7a I relized that I am mostlikely not going to be able to get rid of this block. Custom 7a with hbeam rods and yadda yadda yadaa. So I started thinking I can max bore it throw some hc JE pistons in it to match the 20v and get more power.....If I decide thats what I want to do. Phase 1 is to get the 20v in and see if I am content with it. If I am then i'm finished. If not Ill get those pistons for the 7a and being it will be fully forged maybe.... throw spray at it. On another note this is not my only project. LOL I have 2 bikes working on getting a 3rd and 3 cars. So I stay busy. The ae is more of a show and bragging car at this point. I cant remember last time I raced......................... WOW I cant beleive I just said that. I am getting old!



Help me clean out the garage. Lots of 4age, 4agze, 20v and turbo parts for sale. Ask and I probably have :)
 



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