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 bt 20v gze vvt help plz
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bebo
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23 posts [100%]
amman

 bt 20v gze vvt help plz Reply  Edit


hey all
i have a dead gze and the cost of a new one is twice than 20v bt engine
so my gze ecu and harness and pistons and con-rods are ok i have a dead crank and dead 16v head shaved 3 times already and it needs some valve adjustment etc...
so i will use the bt 20v head and crank with my old pistons and con-rods and ecu and harness
some wise man that i trust in the gze section told me it can be done and i trust him with that
i know it will not be easy but i should start right for my twin charge setup latter when i get the aftermarket ecu etc...

anyway he told me that i can run the vvt system with the same sc signal from the ecu but the vvt must shut down at 6K rpm or i will be losing power etc...
so if anyone did it before can u tell me how to make a relay or something that shut down the vvt at 6k rpm and let the sc working for more i usually go only for 6.5K rpm but some times especially with drifting u need to hit the redline :D
thnx all for reading and help me plz if can i want to get as much power and torque i could get from that engine



yoshimitsuspeed
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286 posts [100%]
Carbondale Co

 Re: bt 20v gze vvt help plz (bebo) » Reply  Edit


You will want to add a window switch. Something like this. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-830452-1
There are two ways you could do it but I will tell you the way I would do it to keep it simple.

T off both the pos and neg on the SC clutch wires. Run the neg straight to the VVT.
Run the pos to the window switch then to the VVT. Wire in the window switch to the coil signal or whatever the instructions require for it to get it's RPM signal. Program the window switch to come on at 2500 RPM and go off at 6500 RPM.
Now the SC will work just like it always did. The neg is the line the ECU uses to turn on the SC/VVT so it will send the signal to both then the window switch will cut power to the VVT when needed.


The other way if the window switch will work with the neg lead is that you could wire it into the neg wire between the SC and the VVT instead of the pos. I don't really see any advantage to either over the other.




http://matrixgarage.com/
AW11
E51
Blacktop, all stock internals
4AGZE ECU, 3SGTE AFM, 4runner coil, DSM T25, 1JZ 380CC injectors, W2A IC
bebo
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23 posts [100%]
amman

 Re: bt 20v gze vvt help plz (yoshimitsuspeed) » Reply  Edit


by the way bro ur the wise man i was talking about
ur the one told me all that shits :D
thnx alot bro but i think i will not get that window switch easily :S i told u be4 am in somwhere i dont have all that options so i think i can run both of them for now working together until i can do somthing else
by the way man dose it really reduce the power at high rpm ? or not much ?
and i need to ask u some of things if it possible plz ? information that i really need 2 know
but lets get it one by one
Crownvicman289




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1984 posts [58%]
Colorado Springs CO

  » Reply  Edit


If you can't employ the VVT function, then just leave it unplugged. All you will lose out on is midrange, the low end and top end you will keep with it unplugged.
yoshimitsuspeed
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286 posts [100%]
Carbondale Co

 Re: bt 20v gze vvt help plz (bebo) » Reply  Edit


Hehe thanks for the kind words.

As Crownvicman says you can leave it unplugged if you don't mind a little loss in the mid. Or you could hook it up straight to the SC signal so it stays on when the SC is on for the gain in the mid and a little loss on top.
For the most part I'd say just leave it unplugged for now, especially with the SC you need the top end more than the mid.
I usually just have mine unplugged. I never bothered to get a window switch because I plan on going MS3 soon enough. I have tested it plugged in to the SC relay and unplugged. I feel like there is a difference but hard to tell by the seat of the pants. My dyno app on my phone also agreed that there was a noticeable difference but it wasn't huge.
Also your properties will likely be different than mine due to the SC.
With my small turbo I have about 7 PSI pre turbine back pressure to 7 PSI boost at 4k RPM. That goes up to about 13 PSI PTBP to 7 PSI boost at redline. This means that overlap is going to effect me very differently than you who will have boost on the intake and close to atmospheric pressure on the exhaust side.
Once you are ready to control the VVT the best thing will be to tune it on the dyno.
Even a dyno app or street dyno hardware/software would be able to tell you a lot about when you want to turn it on and off.



http://matrixgarage.com/
AW11
E51
Blacktop, all stock internals
4AGZE ECU, 3SGTE AFM, 4runner coil, DSM T25, 1JZ 380CC injectors, W2A IC
bebo
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23 posts [100%]
amman

 Re: bt 20v gze vvt help plz (yoshimitsuspeed) » Reply  Edit


no man u deserve that words almost ur the only one helping here
and thnx alot Crownvicman289 for u help man
i think i will keep it working with the sc signal cuz seriously after 6k rpm with sc14 u dont feel any change in power so at 6k rpm u still mid range rpm i think so dont mind having lil bit more power
now i was thinking about the gruntbox and i thought why get one ? i have a friend that have a apexi safc and he dont use it i will buy it from him for cheap price then get a AEM fail-safe gauge with wideband o2 sensor and tune the AFR as much as i need with the boost am running
and i can get a 1jz injectors for a good price and am going to keep the ITB
but the qusiton is the ITB tps and idle work with my harness ? the gze harness and plugs ?
yoshimitsuspeed
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286 posts [100%]
Carbondale Co

 Re: bt 20v gze vvt help plz (bebo) » Reply  Edit


It's hard to remember all the details but if you are running an AFM ECU then most piggyback controllers will not work.
Most piggybacks change the AFM signal to make it think more air is going into the engine causing the ECU to add more fuel. The AFM GZE is notorious for low end leanout. This is caused by an AFM cap put into the ECU programming under 3500 RPM. This means that when under 3500 RPM if the AFM goes over a certain point the ECU doesn't read any higher AFM value. If you run more boost this causes it to run lean under 3500 RPM.
If you use a piggy back you need to make sure it's one of the few (and expensive) that controls injector duty cycle directly.

The ISC plugs right in and works well.

For the TPS you will need the BT clip and wire it into your harness. You will want both the GZE and BT diagrams because if I remember right the order is different on the BT so make sure you get the right wire to the right pin.




http://matrixgarage.com/
AW11
E51
Blacktop, all stock internals
4AGZE ECU, 3SGTE AFM, 4runner coil, DSM T25, 1JZ 380CC injectors, W2A IC
Crownvicman289




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1984 posts [58%]
Colorado Springs CO

  » Reply  Edit


I'll add to what yoshi said about the SAFC. It's a good piece, but it won't work in this application for 1 big reason: the AFM in the old/USDM 4AGs are a 9-0V sensor and the SAFC can only modify a 0-5V signal. Like Yoshi said though, even if it did work, it still wouldn't work as the ECU ignores AFM values above a certain value below 3500. Only an Emanage with all the goodies would work (as far as piggybacks) but that's standalone money, so not worth it. Gruntbox is the only easy way out if you're not willing to run a standalone. BTW I think the factory turns off the VVT around 5000 so if I were you, I'd turn it off where the factory does. Unfortunately, I can't see to find the chart for it at the moment.
bebo
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23 posts [100%]
amman

 Re: (Crownvicman289) » Reply  Edit


Crownvicman289 and yoshi thnx alot for replay
i was making a lil research about it and by the way am running jdm ecu and harness not us one i live in asia
as u said man the e-manage will cost alot of money or i can use it only to adjust the afr for 5 points other way i need another harness caple etc...
but the apexi safc much easier and give me 8 points to adjust and cheap option and the most important i have never tuned a car so the e-manage is so complicated for me ..
the apexi manual say that it works with mr2 4agze 88-89 with a FL-3 sensor ( flap sensor ) but i dont know what 3 refers to and it use 0-5v signal so if fits only Japanese cars
still i dont know but in that case can i still use it or still not ?!
sry for all of that qustions but i want to get the hole pic that i know where to start from and get almost a perfect project not spending my money and time for nothing

yoshimitsuspeed
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286 posts [100%]
Carbondale Co

 Re: (bebo) » Reply  Edit


I don't remember the JDM evolutions or if there was an AFM and a MAP version so just to clarify are you MAP or AFM?
If you are MAP then you might be able to do more with the SAFC.

The NA 4A has a weird AFM output. The 4AGZE is a 0-5 v so the SAFC will work with it but it will not fix the low end leanout issue the MAP based GZE has because the SAFC just tells the ECU the AFM is open further than it is but the ECU doesn't care about that because it has an AFM limit under 3500 RPM. This means you could use the SAFC to add fuel up to that point. You could use it to remove fuel but you can't use it to add fuel over that point.
If you are MAP.
I have heard of some MAP ECUs having a similar low end leanout but I don't know as much about the cause. I have also heard of other issues like loosing power around 5500 RPM.
I don't know much about them but I do feel like Toyota fell very short with the GZE ECUs.




http://matrixgarage.com/
AW11
E51
Blacktop, all stock internals
4AGZE ECU, 3SGTE AFM, 4runner coil, DSM T25, 1JZ 380CC injectors, W2A IC
bebo
Member



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23 posts [100%]
amman

 Re: (yoshimitsuspeed) » Reply  Edit


hey yoshi
yes am ruining AFM not map gze
the e-manage can run the injector duty cycle so i think its the way to go in that case
and also allow me to convert the afm to a map sensor ! but still hard to tune :S
about the 5500 rpm yes its true u dont lose power but u dont feel any more power ! so if u changed the gear at 6K rpm it will drop to about 4800-5000 rpm and if u change the gear at 7-7500 it will drop to 5K rpm ! so ur wasting time and u feel the car its so aggressive at that range of the rpm
once i raced a friend bmw 2.8 high comp engine very strong car so i was in front at 1st and 2nd gear now third gear i was pushing the rpm all the way to 7K rpm he followed me up and beated me with a 2 car deference
later after i found out this problem i raced him again with changing gear at 6K rpm guess what ?! i beated him and he got crazy !! he thought i did some kind of upgrade to the car
they say the problem is with the supercharger not the ecu that the super charge cant spin any more faster at that rpm so he cant make more power he will become a load at the crank so u will start to lose power !
i will fix that problem by adding a twincharge setup later i dont want to lose the SC for now cuz i love the power when it kicks and the sound for sure :D and the low end power that he makes so i will add a turbo that will work at high rpm after 4000K rpm all the way to the 7500K rpm and keep using the sc for low rpm cuz he dont lag and run with a full boost once the trigger is on :D
for that i want to have a good start with the ecu option and the problem that in my country i dont trust the tuners thats why am trying to avoid working with them by getting something easy i can tune it by myself they go for 9:0 AFR in some cars !!! and the engine dosent last for 6 month after they tune it if ur lucky but the problem is that the car owners have no knowledge in upgrading the engines and the ecu ( most of them ) they just pay for strong car and they dont even know what they have under the hood somtimes
am not that kind of persons here is the problem :D i love to do it by me in my way and be sure that everything is 100% matching and right
yoshimitsuspeed
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286 posts [100%]
Carbondale Co

 Re: (bebo) » Reply  Edit


It will be very interesting to see what the 20v head does with the SC12.

You actually have several things working against your upper RPM power. I have heard that the ECU seriously hurts performance over 5500 RPM but I also think that may mainly be the MAP based ECU.

Next you have the SC. It can spin faster but the faster it spins the less efficient it can be and the hotter the air coming out will be. A big intercooler will be your best friend here. Meth and or water injection would also help.

The other thing is that the 16V cams are tiny. Many people have reported that falling flat in the upper RPMs disappears a lot once they put in bigger cams.
The 20V head will likely have similar effects and I suspect you will find it pulls much harder to redline.


Here are two videos of me testing my 0-60 MPH time. The first vid is on the old 16v engine but running my T25 turbo at about 12 PSI.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95IDNLMu28E
The second video is my blacktop running 6 PSI on the same tiny turbo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdH6MBVb_6o

The important thing to watch here is how long they take to get from 6500 RPM to 7500 RPM.
Same turbo, same ECU same exhaust etc. The Blacktop accelerates wayyyy faster in that last 1000 RPM. The best part is once I get rid of the GZE ECU I can up the redline even more and get that much more out of it.



http://matrixgarage.com/
AW11
E51
Blacktop, all stock internals
4AGZE ECU, 3SGTE AFM, 4runner coil, DSM T25, 1JZ 380CC injectors, W2A IC
bebo
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23 posts [100%]
amman

 Re: (yoshimitsuspeed) » Reply  Edit


yes i saw it and with half of the boost ur running even faster than the 16v head !!
thats a real problem with the gze that i cant understand our find out seriously why it dose happend :S
i think my project will be good and by the way i have sc14 not 12 i did upgraded it long time ago and also i think the itbs will give me better response

this car looks almost like my old engine but this one its a lil bet better
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0C0l-lj1mA

and am running larg front cooler already man and this make the problem worst :D
cuz when u shift gears the engine sucks all the air in the cooler so the supercharge must charge air all over again in the cooler and the pipes to the engine !! but look how did this guys fixed it !!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEUiqaTgLAE

yoshimitsuspeed
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286 posts [100%]
Carbondale Co

 Re: (bebo) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by bebo »
yes i saw it and with half of the boost ur running even faster than the 16v head !!
thats a real problem with the gze that i cant understand our find out seriously why it dose happend :S

I am very confidant it is almost completely to do with the tiny cams the 16v came with.
They just cause the motor to run out of steam in the high RPM.

Quote, originally posted by bebo »

and am running larg front cooler already man and this make the problem worst :D
cuz when u shift gears the engine sucks all the air in the cooler so the supercharge must charge air all over again in the cooler and the pipes to the engine !! but look how did this guys fixed it !!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEUiqaTgLAE

I have never understood what dual TBs could possibly do.
The IC will still be drained of boost though it might happen a little slower.
Once the TB before the SC closes it will render the second TB null and void.
Just seems like extra parts to me.

How long does it take to build boost after you let off the gas? Even with the bigger IC it should be almost instant.




http://matrixgarage.com/
AW11
E51
Blacktop, all stock internals
4AGZE ECU, 3SGTE AFM, 4runner coil, DSM T25, 1JZ 380CC injectors, W2A IC
Crownvicman289




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1984 posts [58%]
Colorado Springs CO

  » Reply  Edit


I would like to do dual TBs myself, there's a guy on one of the Miata forums and I'm tempted to join just to pick his brain. The close up throttle body give you good response, but it's a little too good when the boost is on. Like I've said before, I'm going to lower the point where my bypass valve closes, but that might put a strain on the blower when all that air has nowhere to go, so I was going to fix that problem with an electronically controlled throttle body in front of it all likely controlled by my TPS signal, so it'd be as simple as running a 12V power, a ground, and a 0-5V jumper off of my TPS. For me with factory ECU and draw through/FMIC, WOT response was instant. See below and start with post 12.

http://www.miataturbo.net/buil...60073/

Yoshi, the stock cams aren't to blame, it's the stock computer and likely the stock piping as well. My top end was just like the NA motor with my setup with no tapering off.

yoshimitsuspeed
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286 posts [100%]
Carbondale Co

 Re: (Crownvicman289) » Reply  Edit


I agree the ECU may be partially to blame but compare the two vids of my car I posted above. The BT on the GZE ECU clearly has more top end than the 16v on the ECU.
A number of other GZE owners have said they were amazed at the difference cams made to the top end even with the SC12 and stock ECU.



http://matrixgarage.com/
AW11
E51
Blacktop, all stock internals
4AGZE ECU, 3SGTE AFM, 4runner coil, DSM T25, 1JZ 380CC injectors, W2A IC
bebo
Member



Offline

23 posts [100%]
amman

 Re: (yoshimitsuspeed) » Reply  Edit


hey Crownvicman289
yes thats the way i was going to do mine but i never completed it
i got a trunk switch from daewoo car the swiatch thats open the trunk he works on/off and mount it to the tb from a signal of the tps
i had a na intake with tb and a 3sgte tb befor the sc it will give u more response and u can keep ur SC save by installing a BOV the IC and the piping will work as a air tank whenever u hit the gas a gain the air is already there as my friend called that setup its an anti-lag :D but then i got the con-rod bearing failure and i lost the engine and never did it
yoshi my man for ur qusiton about the lag i was runing NO inter cooler at all and the car was amazing very fast very responsive spining wheel whenever u hit the gas then i readed that u have to use intercooler for the hot air temp will harm the pistons and the valve etc... so i got one big one :D
1- late sc boost start at 2500-3000 rpm
2-lag betwen the shifts and the rpm revs if i change gear at 6K rpm it may jump to 7000K rpm as i told u befor the rpm will not drop to 5000K it will drop to around 5500 so i have only 500 rpm to really use ( and here where the twin throttle is great and finish that problem )
3-its charge good all over again but my friend car using the stock ic but he mount it on front of the car and he got short piping he rev faster spically at 3rd and 4th gear
4- i feelt like the car tourqe became better i dont know why
5- great engine sound never heard 4agze with that sound i will post old videos i found to hear the sound and power
that video for sound i and notice the wheel spining
http://tinypic.com/r/ezmjv4/6
this video i raced a 16 red top with headers and intake and clutch kit 5 car deference for me at the end
http://tinypic.com/r/k9xvlx/6
this one is vs for mustang GT v8 4.0 with exhaust system and chip my car had a exhaust leake and burned sparks plugs and clutch at the end the deffrence was 1 car for the GT and he refused to repeat the race and also am sure if my car working right i will beat him !
http://tinypic.com/r/143b0k/6

all of this video from sc12 stock pulley stock engine
later i got the sc14 and some other mods like the na intake the throttle etc...


Crownvicman289




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1984 posts [58%]
Colorado Springs CO

  » Reply  Edit


Adding the intercooler does lower the density of the air entering the engine, not just because the air is cooler, but because you're pumping the same volume of air into a larger space. It kind of acts like a buffer, but with stock ECU I felt that my car pulled harder on top end with the front mount than it did without. No intercooler (JDM setup) was 10 psi, w/FMIC was about 7 psi. No intercooler and 180mm crank pulley was a good 15psi but add in the FMIC and you're down to 10psi. FMIC and 180mm pulley was the strongest top end I ever had on stock ECU. I later switched to a W2A and got better response, boost was 12-13 psi, but it'd heat soak something fierce so the top end was typically somewhere between FMIC and no intercooler.

I'll let you guys know how different the car feels once I get it running which I anticipate to be in the next 2 months. I've got a 264/256 cam setup in it that I didn't previously. Yoshi, my top end argument was geared more toward the ECU and piping being a massive plug as so many like to shoot down the blower itself claiming it has no top end which is absolutely false.

 



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