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 HI-Comp 16v head bolt torque lbs's?First  1 2 >  Last
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sikwdit
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28 posts [100%]
Bellevue WA

 HI-Comp 16v head bolt torque lbs's? Reply  Edit


ahhh! Yahhhh! I'm running a 20V short block with 16V hi comp pistons 10.3 to 1
slitely shaved head using 20V head bolts (some of the cut too fit of course)
New update regular head gasket from Toyota Corp.
and I know the 16V std is 22ft then rotate all to 60ft

Is there any more poundage required for a hi comp build?




SkillaKali
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1399 posts [98%]
San Diego CA

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From what I read its 22 lbs + 90 deg +90 deg.

It feels too tight when I did it but thats what factory says. I would spend the extra money on some head studs cause when I did my motor, 2 bolts felt spongy at max torque.

oldeskewltoy




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13133 posts [99%]
Portland

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Original torque value for the 4AGE was 44#s. You begin with setting all bolts to snug with a conventional ratchet.

FOLLOW the proper tightening sequence!!

Tighten the headbolts in 3 PASSES. The first pass is 22#, the 2nd pass is 33#, and the final pass is 44#s.

I've used that configuration each time... and I've yet to have a head gasket failure.





Information is POWER... learn the facts!!

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sikwdit
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28 posts [100%]
Bellevue WA

 Re: HI-Comp 16v head bolt torque lbs's? (sikwdit) » Reply  Edit


I just talked to my A1 Toyota parts buddy & he confirmed first dude's
number's surprisingly. Of course incorporating the new updated head gasket!
Thanks for the confirmation!

Word to the first dudes numbers

2nd guy's #'s are for the older , like he said , non metalic head gasket!

NIXmx1
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1892 posts [94%]
Las Vegas NV

 Re: (oldeskewltoy) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by SkillaKali »
From what I read its 22 lbs + 90 deg +90 deg.

Quote, originally posted by oldeskewltoy »
Tighten the headbolts in 3 PASSES. The first pass is 22#, the 2nd pass is 33#, and the final pass is 44#s.

Who is correct? The FSM states: 22ft-lb, 90deg., 90deg.

I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong, I just want to know which method is better. After all, I would want my engine to have that GREAT TOYOTA QUALITY





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oldeskewltoy




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13133 posts [99%]
Portland

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That is a "newer" manual

Here is the service manual from the earlier years 85, 86

I apologize for headbolt torque should be 43#s....I've always said 44#s but then read the TRD Bible and it says 47#s........


The bolts never changed.... the gasket has gone through at least, one, and possibly 2 supercessions.

I MY OPINION.... the change was do to too many techs who didn't read the process. Doing it 22#s, then 90, then 90 FORCES the technician to make three passes.





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ga_goosh




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far enough to require shipping HTX

 Re: (oldeskewltoy) » Reply  Edit


honestly i would listen to oldeskewltoy's method. he knows what he is talking about and with his method all the bolts are at the same lb/ft for sure. going by 90 deg then another 90 deg isnt too reassuring to me that they are all at the same torque specs



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sikwdit
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28 posts [100%]
Bellevue WA

 Re: HI-Comp 16v head bolt torque lbs's? (sikwdit) » Reply  Edit


yes ! truth I torque'd the OG head bolts to what the new head gasket spec say's and it is incorect !!!!!
Head gasket leaked and I had to start over ! 22ft. lbs + 90 deg + 90 deg.THat's for stretch head bolt design! With the 90+90 it ends up at like 80FT lbs or more!!
I bought new head bolts factory and they are non stretch head bolt some what reusable and used the 44ft lbs in three passes like the factory sevice manual says!
Ok I lied I when up to 48ftlbs on final pass and I'm having no problems!!!!

allencr


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4088 posts [93%]
Tallahassee FL

 Re: HI-Comp 16v head bolt torque lbs's? (sikwdit) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by sikwdit »
yes ! truth I torque'd the OG head bolts to what the new head gasket spec say's and it is incorect !!!!!
Head gasket leaked and I had to start over ! 22ft. lbs + 90 deg + 90 deg.THat's for stretch head bolt design! With the 90+90 it ends up at like 80FT lbs or more!!
I bought new head bolts factory and they are non stretch head bolt some what reusable and used the 44ft lbs in three passes like the factory sevice manual says!
Ok I lied I when up to 48ftlbs on final pass and I'm having no problems!!!!

What does 'OG head bolts' mean?????
Yes, you cannot use the torque-angle method on anything but a new & un-squeezed OEM type gasket. The initial 22lbs friction method doesn't take out all the crush, so the 90+90deg steps are completely dependent on having a new uncrushed gasket to squeeze down before the bolts can get up to their clamping load.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/ic697.htm
http://www.boltscience.com/pages/tighten.htm
http://www.canadiandriver.com/...g.htm
http://headbolts.com/

Here's an Australian link about 'head hardness'. Soft heads seems to be an OZ only thing!
http://autospeed.com/cms/A_108653/article.html





Kikoushi80


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350 posts [100%]

 Re: HI-Comp 16v head bolt torque lbs's? (allencr) » Reply  Edit


My Manual looks just like the one above, 22ft-lbs + 90 + 90

However,

Below it, there is another section that says "If using 12-pt bolts" go 29ft-lbs + 90.


22ft-lbs + 90 + 90 seemed a little overkill.
I was cranking on my rachet to get the second 90 turn.. Im sure around 80+ ft-lbs.
A few even seemed like I either stripped them or the bolt twisted. (spongey?)

Any ideas? I used a TRD metal head gasket, and reused my bolts from my JDM motor. Should I be re-doing everything with new parts again?

allencr


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4088 posts [93%]
Tallahassee FL

 Re: HI-Comp 16v head bolt torque lbs's? (Kikoushi80) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by Kikoushi80 »
Im sure around 80+ ft-lbs.
A few even seemed like I either stripped them or the bolt twisted. (spongey?)

If it feels bad, then it is bad.
I doubt that a new metal HG will compress as much as a stock, so using the newer 'torque-angle method' will tighten it well over what the stock bolts & block's threads can handle. I hope that the bolts have failed and that the threads aren't being pulled out of the block.
Good luck.




Ae92 corolla


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262 posts [100%]
Regina SK

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is it necessary to retorque after initial start up after a rebuild (specifically if used ARP head studs and a cometic head gasket
allencr


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4088 posts [93%]
Tallahassee FL

 Re: (Ae92 corolla) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by Ae92 corolla »
is it necessary to retorque after initial start up after a rebuild (specifically if used ARP head studs and a cometic head gasket

After 1 major stinking hot heat cycle or dozens below the red zone, mileage is almost irrelevant and I think it should then be re-torqued no matter what components or manufacturer or advertising.
No it is not necessary, there are probably a lot of engines that have lasted a very long time without it. I don't know any.
TTY factory type bolts are an exception. They are stretched just enough to stretch even more when things are hot, and are still stretched & clamping well after things cool down.




Kikoushi80


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350 posts [100%]

 Re: HI-Comp 16v head bolt torque lbs's? (allencr) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by allencr »

If it feels bad, then it is bad.
I doubt that a new metal HG will compress as much as a stock, so using the newer 'torque-angle method' will tighten it well over what the stock bolts & block's threads can handle. I hope that the bolts have failed and that the threads aren't being pulled out of the block.
Good luck.

Thanks!
I pulled them off and none broke while taking them out. (I heard it can happen if they twisted).
Anyhow, I got a new TRD head gasket and all new oem bolts on the way.
FYI... the dealership said they discontinued the TRD head gasket (at least the one I am getting... a few left in Cali.)

I will do the 22ft-lbs +90 +90 on these.

allencr


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4088 posts [93%]
Tallahassee FL

 Re: HI-Comp 16v head bolt torque lbs's? (Kikoushi80) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by Kikoushi80 »
I will do the 22ft-lbs +90 +90 on these.

I wouldn't. I do not think it is applicable for any gasket other then the very crushable OEM that that tightening method was designed for, and will probably result in well over 60ftlb even though their initial set is reduced from 29 to 22.




oldeskewltoy




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13133 posts [99%]
Portland

 Re: HI-Comp 16v head bolt torque lbs's? (Kikoushi80) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by Kikoushi80 »

Anyhow, I got a new TRD head gasket and all new oem bolts on the way.
FYI... the dealership said they discontinued the TRD head gasket (at least the one I am getting... a few left in Cali.)

I will do the 22ft-lbs +90 +90 on these.

Quote, originally posted by allencr »

I wouldn't.

neither would I........

The TRD manual states that you should use 48#s. I STRONGLY recommend you use the three pass method I mention above.

I'd first make sure both surfaces are clean enough for your mom to eat off of.... then I'd set the gasket on... MAKE sure it is on the correct way... (not upside down, not back to front) install all the bolts run them down with a simple 3/8 ratchet. once all the free play is gone I'd do the following... still using that 3/8 rachet add 1/4 turn AFTER free play is gone. This should give you a set point of pressure so the gasket has a mild pressure on it before you begin your torquing process. Since the final value you need is 48, and you want to get there in 3 passes... 23, 35, 48 are the values I'd use.



MAKE SURE you loosen and tighten in the proper manner/order... the two (loosen and tighten) ARE DIFFERENT




Information is POWER... learn the facts!!

http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/ USE it!

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Kikoushi80


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350 posts [100%]

 Re: HI-Comp 16v head bolt torque lbs's? (oldeskewltoy) » Reply  Edit


thanks for the advice!
I have been trying to do everything text book, so the head came off in txt book order and will be going on in text book order.

I will do the 3 pass tightening technique to 44 as you mentioned.

I did the 22ft-lbs 90+90 and it seemed way too hard.
I can only hope I didn't destroy any threads in the block.
I may have twisted bolts though (The ones I took out).

I will let you know how it goes!

How many engines have you done with your 3 pass 44 ft-lbs torqueing method?
Where you using TRD Metal gaskets?

oldeskewltoy




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13133 posts [99%]
Portland

 Re: HI-Comp 16v head bolt torque lbs's? (Kikoushi80) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by Kikoushi80 »

How many engines have you done with your 3 pass 44 ft-lbs torqueing method?
Where you using TRD Metal gaskets?

Hmmm, somewhere between 6 and a dozen......

No not using the TRD gasket.....

I've dug around in my old TRD catalog/manuals and I found the torque spec for the AE92 TRD engines. 730 kg-cm + or - 30 kg-cm 730kg-cm = to 52.8 ft/lbs. That is using the TRD head gasket #11115-AE813 (.8mm)

Using 53 as your goal.... I'D use the 44 as your third pass, and ADD a 4th pass to 53#s



Information is POWER... learn the facts!!

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350 posts [100%]

 Re: HI-Comp 16v head bolt torque lbs's? (oldeskewltoy) » Reply  Edit


It keeps freakin changing!!!

haha~ Thanks! Will do.

Why haven't you gone with the metal gasket btw?

oldeskewltoy




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13133 posts [99%]
Portland

 Re: HI-Comp 16v head bolt torque lbs's? (Kikoushi80) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by Kikoushi80 »

Why haven't you gone with the metal gasket btw?

cause it seals like crap.

The OEM gasket was used for both n/a and boost, so if I need to gain compression, using a thinner headgasket works, but there are better ways to gain compression - high comp pistons, shave head, shave(aka deck) block.


Oh... concerning it changing.... it really hasn't.... 43/44#s is the stock head gasket torque value. In the AE86 book, the torque value is 48#s, and in the AE92 book it is 53#s with the head gasket they used. 3 different #s because it is 3 different engines.

What is the headgasket part# you have??? Does it match the AE92 part number I listed??? Then use that torque value - 53#s


A bit of further research shows...

oem gasket 43/44#s

asbestos, or carbon gaskets 48#s

Now... the gasket you likely have is the 1115-AE814 - .8mm metal gasket. The AE92 manual shows the .8mm gasket being part number 11115-AE813.

ASSUMPTION: AE813 was a metal gasket that got updated to AE814. Since AE813 uses 53#s, I'd likely use the 53#s. Do it in 4 passes the AE92 GrpA manual states 14.5#s, 29#s, 44#s, and 53#s



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AZNWOKZ
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2081 posts [100%]
CT

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I remember when i gotten so confused when I done my head gasket torquing values and torquing method even when i followed the factory manual.





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3143 posts [99%]

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The reason Toyota changed to a torque plus angle is because it is a more accurate method to ensure proper clamping pressure.

As long as you have an accurate torque wrench, either method is fine.

That being said, I would use whatever spec Toyota has provided for your application. If you are working on a bluetop, use the bluetop spec, if you are using a redtop, use the redtop spec (torque + angle), if you are using a TRD gasket, use the TRD spec.

Jeff

Kikoushi80


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350 posts [100%]

 Re: (Jeff Lange) » Reply  Edit


I know what I'll torque it to now, but the issue was I am rebuilding an AE101-4AGZE engine... anyone have a manual? To my knowledge, these were only in Japan... maybe some part of Europe? I suppose an USDM MR2-4AGZE is comparable.

Another problem is, I believe the MR2-4AGZE didn't use the metal head gasket.

I will be using the metal gasket since I am raising the compression on the S/C.
Which means different torque specs than the regular MR2-4AGZE.

It's a big mess...

I think I have it figured out tho!

Thanks you all, and especially OLDSKOOL!

cool breeze
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21 posts [100%]
san antonio tx

 Re: HI-Comp 16v head bolt torque lbs's? (oldeskewltoy) » Reply  Edit


Should i use the method for the TRD HG that old skool has outlined on my upcoming hg job?

4 passes: 23, 35, 48, 53 ft lbs
My setup is:
stock bluetop bottom end
stock smallport head, resurfaced
7afe head gasket OEM

thanks

Evo_lucian




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1584 posts [95%]
Saint Lucia, West Indies

 Re: HI-Comp 16v head bolt torque lbs's? (sikwdit) » Reply  Edit


22 ft lb in sequence and then a round of 90 degree in sequence the another round of 90 degree turn. as per toyota service manual.



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oldeskewltoy




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13133 posts [99%]
Portland

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since you are planning on using a 7AFE gasket... I'd look for the 7AFE spec......

Quote, originally posted by Evo_lucian »
22 ft lb in sequence and then a round of 90 degree in sequence the another round of 90 degree turn. as per toyota service manual.

as confirmed in this 7AFE repair manual page 39 - http://www.islapinguino.com/img/celica/7A-FE.pdf

Modified by oldeskewltoy at 3:51 PM 12/29/2010



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mekanick
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808 posts [98%]
Bakersfield Ca

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This should be a sticky



FX16 motor parts:
http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=82072
cool breeze
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21 posts [100%]
san antonio tx

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Will use 7afe HG method, didn't see that one coming. Thanks very much!
sprinterae86




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396 posts [100%]
Jacksonville FL

 Re: HI-Comp 16v head bolt torque lbs's? (sikwdit) » Reply  Edit


New update on redtop/small port torque sequence based on the 90-92 Geo Prism GSI

8-10 ft# first pass
16 ft# second pass
22 ft# third pass
dot the bolt then 90 deg 4th pass
then 90 deg 5th pass

I was told the head bolts are torque to yield.

Modified by sprinterae86 at 10:29 PM 4/22/2011

scoobygms210
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312 posts [99%]
san antonio tx

 Re: HI-Comp 16v head bolt torque lbs's? (sprinterae86) » Reply  Edit


from what i know 4age head bolts are not stretch and are reusable and from what i can see on my build the 22 33 44 53 is right where im at and im not seeing anything wrong with it ... 22 plus 90 + 90 seems scary tight and i rather not break another bold in my block lol oem head gasket from toyota
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