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canadianae92




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1211 posts [95%]

 9age Reply  Edit


Was mentioned to me by a friend, looked around on the net and found this.

http://cnj.craigslist.org/pts/1073897456.html



orangekid




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3249 posts [87%]
please, no pictures...

  » Reply  Edit


2zzge crank? huh...that's interesting...
TomsTwincam




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3051 posts [98%]
Planfield NJ

  » Reply  Edit


Never saw this before. He's located about 40 mins from me to. Interesting.



Peter Diaz
member of C4AG since 1999

Shift Gear Blog, Blog about anything and everything Old School Import related
http://www.shiftgearblog.com

Honorary KNUK KNUK

Check out my 3SGTE into AE86 build. It's public so it can be viewed by anyone.
http://www.facebook.com/ElFatherAE86

http://www.ectoyotas.com/forum/ <---forum for East Coast Toyota Ethusiasts


VitriumGTS




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4730 posts [96%]
San Jose/San Diego CA

  » Reply  Edit


whoa, looks like the ZZ engines share a lot more with the A series than I thought



My RHDJapan.com receipt said: "Your order # is: 100001986". The AE86 gods really are looking out for me.
jspexae102


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1141 posts [91%]
Union City CA

  » Reply  Edit


I wonder how he came up with 9



Memoryfab.com
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VitriumGTS




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4730 posts [96%]
San Jose/San Diego CA

 Re: (jspexae102) » Reply  Edit


4ag = 1.6
5ag = 1.7
7ag = 1.8

2zz + 7ag = 9ag

then you got those custom 4.5 and 5.5ag kits in japan lol



My RHDJapan.com receipt said: "Your order # is: 100001986". The AE86 gods really are looking out for me.
Barry
Moderator - 9,500RPM club



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6232 posts [100%]
hellaNORCAL

  » Reply  Edit


it would be pointless to run a 2zz crankshaft if you already have a 7afe, you would be destroking the motor from a 1.8 to a 1.7liter.

using a 1zz crankshaft will give you 1.9-2liter if running 83mm pistons.



-barry

9500RPM Club...4AGE

wtb: AE86 16v intake box and arm.

LOTS of parts for sale, tools, AE101, AE86, jubride, RSR, TRD:
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RTN
Member



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112 posts [100%]
HI/NV

 Re: (VitriumGTS) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by VitriumGTS »
whoa, looks like the ZZ engines share a lot more with the A series than I thought

my thoughts exactly, my friend with an XRS changed her flywheel & clutch out and the flywheel looked exactly like the AE111 4AGE.
Ex:

however, I did read this article a while back: http://www.toysport.com/Techni...s.htm, but it didn't list specs or other info.
a 7A with a stronger crank would make a mean engine.

Barry is right though...
1zz: 79mm bore x 91.5mm stroke
2zz: 82mm bore x 85mm stroke
7a: 81mm bore x 85.5mm stroke

canadianae92




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1211 posts [95%]

 Re: (RTN) » Reply  Edit


I think a 2.0L A series engine with a G head would be pretty sick. Another discussion I found was talking about the 1zz crank in the 7a block, I guess this guys info is a little bit off? Haha.
RTN
Member



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112 posts [100%]
HI/NV

 Re: (canadianae92) » Reply  Edit


the guy on craigslist could be going for the stronger crank (8-bolt flywheel too) with the 2ZZ internals over the 7A. not sure if oversized piston/rod selection also comes into play.
Miami-Twincam




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1147 posts [88%]

  » Reply  Edit


I was thinking about doing a 9agze or 9agte but I dont think the 7afe can handle much boost.




gtstwincam16@hotmail.com :thumbup:

mexellent
Member



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402 posts [94%]
arlington tx

 Re: 9age (canadianae92) » Reply  Edit


Quote »
INTERNALS
11.8:1 Compression
7afe block
2zzge crankshaft
Custom Rods have arp bolts
New oem toyota main and rod bearings well at time of build
Je forged custom pistons with rings
adjustable 1 cam pulley
20V blacktop head with mild kelford 194-b cams
port and polish slight headwork
VVT still works
VVt controller changes VVT
You will need some sort of piggy back unit I am not including my unit
2azfe COP conversion
OEM blacktop M/T ecu
70MM Velocity stacks
OEM NEW Toyota Headbolts
OEM 7AFE metal headgasket
20V Distributor
NO engine harness
No exhaust Manifold
Please note you will need an exhuast for this as its a bare engine kept the manifold for my other ae82 blacktop

copied the ad in case it dies



"Bisexuality immediately doubles your chances for a date on Saturday night."
-Woody Allen
Barry
Moderator - 9,500RPM club



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6232 posts [100%]
hellaNORCAL

  » Reply  Edit


guys in the UK are modding 1zz cranks into the 7afe block. it requires some sort of machining and custom rods and such.

its pretty much a kept secret how its done. you will end up with a 1.9liter or 2liter engine. the scary thing is that at 83mm bore the force being applied to your cylinder walls with the increased stroke will surely crack your cyl wall.

you will have a 2liter engine, but who knows how long it will last before the cylinder wall cracks and leaks coolant into your combustion chamber.



-barry

9500RPM Club...4AGE

wtb: AE86 16v intake box and arm.

LOTS of parts for sale, tools, AE101, AE86, jubride, RSR, TRD:
http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=86969

Akuma Dori Development
Member



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1805 posts [100%]
3 Stars And A Sun

  » Reply  Edit


sold to who?



* Three Stars And A Sun * Drifting Division *

ilovemy86@yahoo.com


gts2ltr


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418 posts [100%]

 Re: (Akuma Dori Development) » Reply  Edit


How do you get 2 ltrs if the 2zz and the 7afe are 1.8 ltrs?
errincooke


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1156 posts [98%]

 Re: (Barry) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by Barry »

using a 1zz crankshaft will give you 1.9-2liter if running 83mm pistons.


gts2ltr


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418 posts [100%]

 Re: (errincooke) » Reply  Edit


Oooh! thanks,
Moto-P
Founder/Webmaster - wwwClub4ag.com



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11371 posts [98%]
Southern California CA

 Re: 9age (canadianae92) » Reply  Edit


Interesting...



Moto Miwa
Founder/ Administrator Club4AG
moto@club4ag.com

gts2ltr


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418 posts [100%]

 Re: 9age (Moto-P) » Reply  Edit


I have a 1zz crank F/S if anyone is interested, LMK, thanks
rtrac1


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304 posts [100%]
Schenectady NY

 Re: 9age » Reply  Edit


hmmm

and to think, i was about to scrap that 1zz and 4ac I have sitting in my garage. Maybe ill tear em down and see whats doin



'86 SR5 hatch - 4AGE w/twin mikunis
'07 FJ Cruiser - Tow Pig
'88 Samurai - Rock Rig
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jdm monkey




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677 posts [99%]

 Re: 9age (rtrac1) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by rtrac1 »
hmmm

and to think, i was about to scrap that 1zz and 4ac I have sitting in my garage. Maybe ill tear em down and see whats doin

let us know how it goes. i also have a 1zz in the garage



[B]JDM Monkey [I]tuning[/I] [/B]
[B]LIVautosports[/B]
[B]SlickedBays[/B]
Moto-P
Founder/Webmaster - wwwClub4ag.com



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11371 posts [98%]
Southern California CA

 Here's what Richard White came up with... » Reply  Edit


First I have to ask why?
Unless one has a spare donor 7AG/4AG and an extra 1ZZ/2ZZ crank laying around and a lot of ambition along with some extra money and time to spend on such an endeavor, there maybe some very real reliability flaws in this combination, especially if one wants to increase the rpms.

Please note, from what I have read, the 2ZZ motor is an extremely good production motor and is an evolution ahead of the 4AG and last 7A series. The aluminum block uses a metal matrix composite (MMC) bore for lightness and stiffens. This MMC bore consist of alumina-silica fibers and mulite particles. It is so unique that the bore had to be electrochemically machined to achieved the desired surface finish. (ref SAE paper 2000-01-1231). And recalling what one looked like internally, there are special oil sprayers for the cam lobes. A refinement in the squish area (better emissions and fuel mileage) and all sorts of other neat, race engine like stuff.

The only weakness that I remember in looking at one is the unsupported top of the sleeves/bores in relationship to the block and head. But that weakness is easier to over come (reference any hot-rodding of a Honda motor with the same un support cylinder sleeves.) than the inherent weakness in the 7A Block

The 2ZZ bottom end, even though aluminum appears stiffer than the 4A/7A single cap, two bolt main design. As I recall, the 2ZZ is a clam shell design that nearly separates each crank journal into its own compartment. The main bearing saddles tie directly into the block, i.e., the crank case housing. The head design speaks for its self. The valves are larger, the combustion chamber is smaller. The valve included angle is 43deg and it get the latest VVTL-i treatment, e.g., change in duration, timing and lift. The whole 2ZZ package is lighter and more efficient.

Please note, a 7A crank will not fit into a 4A block. The journal throws are just to large, and even if it did the block height is just to short (191mm, 7A block is 206.4mm; 2ZZ is 211.8mm and 1ZZ is 222.42mm) to be safe with any short connecting rod. The max angle from a 122mm rod used in a Stock 4AG block/crank (77mm stroke) is 17.5deg. The rod angle when using the HKS stroker crank at 83mm (I don't think it is quite as advertised) would calculate out to about 18.8degs. Using the 7A Crank (85.5mm stoke) and rod (132.5mm length) the rod angle is 18.9 degs. The 2ZZ max rod angle is 17.1deg (85mm stoke and rod 138mm length)

This angle is important because at large rod angles there are extreme forces trying to bend that rod and it goes up exponential as the speed (RPMs) rise. That is one of several reasons why you see very short strokes in F1, with additional consideration given for the weight/mass, inertia, one gets when using larger components.

The other critical evaluation one has to consider when using crankshafts for other than what they were intended is the Journal over lap. This gives one a reference to how stiff the crank is. The larger the number the more torsionally stiff its potential is. The 2ZZ has been advertised as 4mm and the 1ZZ a poor 0.25mm (ref. SAE paper 2000-010-0671) The early model 4AG = 5.5 mm; late model = 6.5mm and the 7A = 5.25mm. The HKS small journal is a concerning 2.5mm and the HKS stroker late model large journal is a better 3.5mm

Assuming that a 1ZZ or 2ZZ crank does manage to have the same:
1) bore spacing (2ZZ = 87.5mm vs 4AG = 87.5mm)
2) main bearing journal width and diameter (2ZZ dia = 48mm vs. 4AG dia = 48mm vs. 7A dia = 48mm)(width not verified, but the 2ZZ is suppose to be smaller, i.e., a reduction in friction)
3) same thrust bearing locations and tolerances?
4) same size pilot bearing for the T50 tranny or other?
5) same axial position for the fly wheel, clutch disk surface. Assuming one is using the 4A or 3A bell housing, i.e., location for the throw-out bearing.
6) same crank nose design to drive the 4AG oil pump, mount the crank pulley to drive accessories without putting excessive strain on the belts and locate the timing pulleys. (the 1ZZ/2ZZ are chain driven; the "A" motors are belt driven with removable timing drive pulley)
7) have a timing belt tensioner design that does not put undo force on the crank nose or allow the belt to create harmonics and jump timing teeth. (long unsupported timing belts have nasty habit of jumping teeth at high transional speeds.)

Then putting the 2ZZ crank into the 7A block ought to be simple (comment in jest). But again I would ask why. The 7A block is wide and the casting thin at the bottom skirt. In my opinion it is not very stiff and diffidently not as stiff as the 2ZZ to handle the rpm the 2ZZ uses to make it's 180 hp. The 7A Aluminum oil pan "stiffener" interface does (in my opinion, observation) little to add stiffness to the bottom end of the 7A block, e.g., at the main bearing saddles.

I would certainly recommend using the 2ZZ over combining of parts and making new, interesting "discoveries". Just my thoughts.

Rich.
<---



Moto Miwa
Founder/ Administrator Club4AG
moto@club4ag.com

Barry
Moderator - 9,500RPM club



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6232 posts [100%]
hellaNORCAL

 Re: Here's what Richard White came up with... (Moto-P) » Reply  Edit


WOW....

NICE email by Rich...Richard White?

so, in the US this configuration isn't completed much. Only maybe 1-2 people have ever done the conversion but have kept it a big secret. In the UK though, they have been experimenting with this for the fact that the 7AFE engine bolts into the AE86 chassis. The crankshaft does require some machining i think for the width of the crank journals from what I have been told. I have never compared the two crankshafts myself so I don't know personally. It is quite a project if anybody ever takes on the task. Why do you ask? There is no replacement for displacement is always the reasoning. A 2 Liter in a corolla chassis, count me in. the amount of headaches involved with completing a task, count me out. There is a reliabilty factor here that you have to factor in and this configuration is simply pushing those limits.

the 7AFE block is not as strong as the 2ZZ block which is why this frankenstien motor is never brought up or suggested.

Rich does bring up a good point in regards to the crankshaft journal overlap to distinguish how rigid the crankshaft will be. That is a good point that is never mentioned when speaking of crankshafts.



-barry

9500RPM Club...4AGE

wtb: AE86 16v intake box and arm.

LOTS of parts for sale, tools, AE101, AE86, jubride, RSR, TRD:
http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=86969

canadianae92




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1211 posts [95%]

 Re: Here's what Richard White came up with... (Barry) » Reply  Edit


Wow thanks moto some good info :D

Also found this when searching for info on the mystic 9age
http://www.speedracersportscars.com.au/stroker.htm

I really can't find any extensive technical information on a 9age but it is interesting. I guess certain people want to keep secrets.

Edit: Found this too http://www.ae86drivingclub.com...=2229

Done searching for now heh.

MR2erDave


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12 posts [100%]

 Re: Here's what Richard White came up with... (canadianae92) » Reply  Edit


mr2erdave= daveseshop engine sold what would you like to know? we had a 4 page discussion on the 9age engine on mr2oc.com
Its best of both worlds 4a+ CC's
rods were custom engine was bored out to 82 using honda 11.3 pistons
The 1zz crankshaft turns the 4age oil pump fine
picture...

Crank in engine ... please note zz crankshaft is chubby and requires material removal from the center counter weight the main journals are the same as the 7a engine you can use zz bearings in your 7afe ahh toyota
I just chose the 2zz crankshaft as its better for 8000 rpm operation the 2zz engine has a better lower end design but the 7a is cast iron not as good as the 4a series but this is na and 83mm is really pushing cylinder wall thickness so i chose 82mm
One of the old 9age in my garage with a 1zz crankshaft im not building this one may sell it may keep it its undone

Thanks David



MR2erDave


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12 posts [100%]

 Re: Here's what Richard White came up with... (MR2erDave) » Reply  Edit


i have some more pics these are almost 3 years old there no secret to the 9age its dirt cheap if your on a budget and you can always stroke a 7a crankshaft

4agze 8.0 pistons with 2zz rod and 1zz crankshaft too tall but 2-3mm there are smaller compression height pistons
BUT please its a dark road you start messing with this and that and it may not work fit do research if you want to have a 7a swap
I will have the dyno up when i can find a scanned image of it engine was sold to L. Agusto of virginia
ae82hybrid




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1883 posts [100%]
Akuma Island

 Re: Here's what Richard White came up with... (MR2erDave) » Reply  Edit


Ever get that dyno sheet?



"AE Squad'
XNC
Member



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228 posts [100%]
Vancouver WA

  » Reply  Edit


Out of curiosity, has anybody done research as to if the 3zz crank fits as well? Then you would have a much higher RTS, but I can't seem to find any technical data (in english anyway) about the crankshaft as it was never here in the US.



- Johnny D

1985 Corolla GTS. SOLD!
1983 Corolla SR-5 HARDTOP! - Project [4afe]
1977 Celica Liftback - Project 7agze :thumbup:

Gabriel82
Member



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407 posts [100%]
Los Angeles CA

  » Reply  Edit


toyota pn's? shopping list..
one of my friends works for toyota....
thnx.....
would the zz cranks work in a 20v St?
thoughts.....



Raul & Gabriel Gonzalez
email: raul_gonzalezjr@yahoo.com, gonzalezgabe7@gmail.com
323/909/626 area SOCAL

DIY 86 Dash Refurbish - Rubberized http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=52963
www.steerandsave.com

PM or email pls... thnx!

yetzqwikdohc




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872 posts [100%]

 Re: (Gabriel82) » Reply  Edit


Need moar infos on this!!! Bump!
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