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 4AGE 16v + ITB + camsFirst  1 2 >  Last
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elcuborican
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65 posts [100%]
Gwinnett County GA

 4AGE 16v + ITB + cams Reply  Edit


I have a 1986 Corolla GTS, my original bluetop engine threw a rod so I ended up getting another 4AGE swapped in.

Here's what I know about the new engine:
It was a red top and 7 ribs with TVIS and I was told it was from Japan pulled from an MR2 with ~70K miles. I don't know if it was the high compression or not. I know the oil squirters are a way to tell but I don't know how I can tell if it has them since the engine is already in. If there's another way to tell let me know please. Anyways, I had new seals and gaskets put in, it runs great. I realize this engine might not be the best platform to start an NA project since I'm afraid I have the low compression ratio redtop (input on this?).

What I want to do now is put on the ITBs from the 20v. I know I'm going to need the adapter from T3. First though I need advice on which ITBs, whether from the blacktop or silvertop?

I also want to put in new camshafts and cam gears. I would like your input as to what lift duration would work best for a build for faster and higher revving, which is what I want to build my engine. Are there any compatability issues since I'm thinking I have the low compression redtop? As far as brand I was thinking of going HKS, if anyone wants to throw some input in for a good company for the cams/gears I'd appreciate that as well.

Finally I know I'll need a standalone/programmable ECU to run this setup. I have been looking around but I really have no idea about this and I really would like advice from people here who have run ITBs before. I would appreciate specific models that work for this if possible!

I know this will cost me over 3,000$ with tune so I'm prepared to spend it for a good setup. I won't say money is no object because it is but I'm aware of the costs.

Please advise! I would love to learn, I have been reading and watching for a long time and am ready to start my build!

Sorry for the novel, and thanks!




jimmer411
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215 posts [100%]
U S

  » Reply  Edit


Mr2s were all 9.4:1 like your bluetop, your also going to want to swap over your crank pulley and accessories.

There are too many variables here. Whats your budget and level of mechanical skill? stand alone can be as cheap as a megasquirt that you assemble and tune yourself or as expensive as a haltec or something that a shop tunes. expects anywhere from 400 to 2000+ just on that depending on the route you take.

cams and compression go hand and hand, beyond 256 dur 8.1mm lift your going to make power beyond redline, or possibly make less power from lower dynamic compression. a higher redline will help but your really going to want to bump the compression a bit.

itbs are more of a final touch, you should atleast get the car running on standalone before adding them. even still all that work and money just to run stock compression might not even break 110whp.

elcuborican
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65 posts [100%]
Gwinnett County GA

 Re: (jimmer411) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by jimmer411 »
Mr2s were all 9.4:1 like your bluetop, your also going to want to swap over your crank pulley and accessories.

There are too many variables here. Whats your budget and level of mechanical skill? stand alone can be as cheap as a megasquirt that you assemble and tune yourself or as expensive as a haltec or something that a shop tunes. expects anywhere from 400 to 2000+ just on that depending on the route you take.

cams and compression go hand and hand, beyond 256 dur 8.1mm lift your going to make power beyond redline, or possibly make less power from lower dynamic compression. a higher redline will help but your really going to want to bump the compression a bit.

itbs are more of a final touch, you should atleast get the car running on standalone before adding them. even still all that work and money just to run stock compression might not even break 110whp.

Thanks for the response,

I'm not on a high level of mechanical skill but I have friends and cousins that can help and they are.

I forgot to mention I have the lightweight T3 crank pulley, if thats what you meant. my budget is around 3,000$, not really a particular number I just tried bieng generous when i was adding up the parts.

As far as standalone I was planning to get all the parts all at once and install them then take the car to get a shop tune to get it running right. I was hoping budget-wise to spend around 1,000$ on a standalone + tune, probably will run me more, or am I bieng way too optimistic on price range?

So maybe I should just buy a redtop hi comp and start from there instead of putting it all in my low-comp engine? I don't mind spending my money but I do want it to be well spent and see decent results! What do you guys think?

jimmer411
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215 posts [100%]
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  » Reply  Edit


Id definately start with the smallport highcomp as its got 10.3:1 compression and with a trd 0.5mm headgasket you should be close to 11:1. You could then have the smallport manifold modified for RWD at a shop for fairly cheap, I seen a dyno showing it made more power than the tvis manifold with t3 adapter plate on the smallport head. You could get it running on stock electronics just swap over your accessories (alt, ps, ac etc) and do the resistor mod and make sure you use your distributer as well.

stock the smallport puts down 110whp roughly, you could sell the fwd tranny to an mr2 or ae92 owner to recover some costs as well if it comes with one.

expect to spend about 1000 for the standalone itself, then install and dyno time to tune it.

jondee86
Reggae Rules...



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4374 posts [96%]
Wellington, NZ

 Re: (elcuborican) » Reply  Edit


Don't worry too much about the pedigree of your base engine. Whatever you
have will be strong enough for the mods you have outlined. What you do need
to think about is what sort of use you have in mind for the car.

Just adding a bunch of bolt-on parts to an engine does not guarantee that you
will make more power, or even that the car will be as nice to drive as it is now.
Many people have put money into an engine to find they lost power and ended
up with a car that stalls at every set of lights when hot... ask me how I know

To get the best out of your mods, you need to consider the end use for the car,
and how much drivability you are prepared to give up to get a big number at
redline on the dyno. Then you can factor in the internal mods necessary to get
the result you want... increased compression, headwork, bearings, balancing etc.
Cam duration, intake, exhaust and engine management all make a major
contribution, and again they must be seen as part of the whole performance
package.

You have obviously already put a lot of thought into this project. So I'm sure
you will appreciate that a "holistic" approach, and careful planning, is necessary
to avoid disappointment further down the line.

Cheers... jondee86



jondee86 has been a member for 735,126 days.

Give a person a fish, they eat for a day. Suggest they search before posting, and they learn a skill for a lifetime.

jondee86
Reggae Rules...



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4374 posts [96%]
Wellington, NZ

 Re: 4AGE 16v + ITB + cams (elcuborican) » Reply  Edit


Yeah... got side tracked

ST throttles are plenty big enough for a 16V, and easier to find.

Mild cams will work with your stock ECU if you want to build in stages. If you are
going to go straight to a standalone ECU, you can go bigger on the cams. More
duration and as much lift as the stock springs and shims will allow. But as said, you
will need more compression to get the best out of them.

You will want a nice mandrel bent 2.25" exhaust with a free-flowing muffler. Light
flywheel is nice also. Skim the head and a cleanup of the ports as a minimum, with
a thin head gasket. Adjustable cam pulleys (T3 do some) are essential for dialing
in the cams, and a wideband O2 gauge if you plan to do any tuning yourself.

I'm going down this path myself, only difference is that I started with a smallport.

Cheers... jondee86



jondee86 has been a member for 735,126 days.

Give a person a fish, they eat for a day. Suggest they search before posting, and they learn a skill for a lifetime.

JapaneseDeman
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1429 posts [92%]
Dothan Alabama

 Re: 4AGE 16v + ITB + cams (elcuborican) » Reply  Edit


I'm with you elcuborican. I'm in the same boat now, somewhat. Trying to Build up my stock 16v bluetop.
I'm somewhat near you (im in alabama) if you ever want to swap ideas and talk abuot this stuff, shoot me a pm on here.

And hopefully, this thread will continue to grow, as i'm hoping to learn more from the discussion as well.

balmo




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4927 posts [100%]
Brentwood CA

  » Reply  Edit


same boat here. chose to build a 3-rib bigport since i have a spare. i already have ae101 itb's with t3 adapter. plan to get megasquirt diypip, run on my current setup to get familiar with the computer.
JapaneseDeman
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1429 posts [92%]
Dothan Alabama

 Re: (balmo) » Reply  Edit


HAHA. AH! almost exactly the same. i lucked out and found an extra bluetop out of an ae86 coupe. it's old, in desperate need of re-do-ing. but i wanted to actually BUILD a 16v that would be comparable to the 20v. I love the 20v, but i see just as much work and money as i see building a 16v.

i hope to run a high comp, itb's, cams, cam gears, etc.... my biggest concern is the ITB vaccuum and overall instalation, and then the ECU.

i'd like to figure out how megasquirt runs, i hear good things, and it's supposedly cheap as dirt. But i don't have the slightest on how to get one of those running.....

balmo, el cuborican. keep me up to date. it'll be a learning experience for all of us.

mxpunk
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432 posts [67%]
corvallis oregon

 Re: (JapaneseDeman) » Reply  Edit


have you looked into turbo charging the motor at all?

I too have been going back and forth, reading about building N/A engines and whatnot.

When you factor in the dollar per horse power increase per dollar spent, turbo is way cheaper and has way more potential.

not trying to de-rail your thread at all btw, I have been researching the same exact thing you are as I am against anything "Jdm" and would rather build a 4age then go w/ a 20v or something

JapaneseDeman
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1429 posts [92%]
Dothan Alabama

 Re: (mxpunk) » Reply  Edit


who exactly was the question directed toward? lol

i personally have no problem with turbo, however...i'm more for an n/a build. i like the responsiveness of an n/a build, and i'd rather get used to a full potential n/a before i upgrade to more power... u know? hahaha

balmo




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4927 posts [100%]
Brentwood CA

 Re: (JapaneseDeman) » Reply  Edit


well i already got my ae101 itb and t3 adapter for bigport:

i just couldn't pass up the deal on these in the for sale section. this actually started my 16v itb route rather than going 20v. i'll buy the megasquirt diypip maybe in a few weeks.

jondee86
Reggae Rules...



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4374 posts [96%]
Wellington, NZ

 Re: (mxpunk) » Reply  Edit


The turbo and N/A represent two philosophically opposed approaches to tuning !!

I guess going turbo is the equivalent of the "there is no substitute for cubic inches"
approach, popular with old school hot rodders. If all you want is more hp for for
your dollar, by all means go turbo. Or swap in a more powerful engine.

But if you appreciate the classic characteristics of the AE86 and its N/A 4AGE
twin cam engine, and want to improve its performance, without losing those
characteristics, you will be happy staying N/A.

To be brutally honest, if all someone wants is a 500hp tire shredding AE86, they
are working with the wrong car. For that sort of power you are way better off
starting with a stronger, heavier and more modern car. My 2c worth

Cheers... jondee86




jondee86 has been a member for 735,126 days.

Give a person a fish, they eat for a day. Suggest they search before posting, and they learn a skill for a lifetime.

mxpunk
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432 posts [67%]
corvallis oregon

 Re: (jondee86) » Reply  Edit


very true, i suppose if the OP just wants to take it to track days then its not a big deal.

i have been contemplating these two options as well, but the difference between myself and most others is that i want to actually compete one day.

ITB's do sound dope as **** though

elcuborican
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65 posts [100%]
Gwinnett County GA

 Re: (jondee86) » Reply  Edit


I have considered both routes of going turbo or staying N/A. But either way I would be better off starting with the 4agze block for the lower compression or the high compression redtop for N/A instead of my current engine.

I just don't want to pour all that money and effort into something that won't preform as well as if I had just saved a bit and bought the more ideal base engine for whichever route I ended up choosing.

Seeing as how when I swapped in my engine I have now I got all new seals, gaskets, etc. and its a perfectly fine running engine with low miles and I would hate to just get rid of it for another. Lately I have been thinking of just keeping it until it dies then doing the swap...lol

Grant
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3656 posts [86%]
San Jose ca

  » Reply  Edit


On the other hand, the my blacktop install cost $1300 including wiring and ecu! Makes 20V seem like a bargain.



Stand Alone ECU tuning. Message me for details.

Looking to buy a corolla manual rack and a TRD 3 gear transmission.
*also wtb 4 point roll cage/bar for ae86 coupe

balmo




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4927 posts [100%]
Brentwood CA

 Re: (Grant) » Reply  Edit


its very true grant. before, i was semi-looking for a blacktop 20v. i was expecting to get a motorset around $800-$1500. however, i haven't had the luck to get one without resorting to out of state, ebay 20v motorset.

if i did choose to get a blacktop, at the minimum, i would have also bought:
pass 20v gasket kit
new hydraulic tensioner
water pump
oil pump
waterline kit (big saving from SamQ)
velocity stacks

rough estimate is around $2500 give or take. also, there is a minute chance that a 20v you are getting is bonk. hey, not all engines that came from japan are in good condition right? (don't get a motorset from jdm_planet btw. just helping out with smallport4ag's casue.)

now the 16v itb, big ticket times are:
standalone
itb's + adapter
machine work
pistons
head work

i've pegged my build at a very conservative budget of around $3000. now there's one big ticket item that's missing there: cams. i already have cams and cam gears so i am not including that in the budget.

ronny
RnD Office - Ronny



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7077 posts [89%]
Irvine CA

 Re: (balmo) » Reply  Edit


288 9mm lift or higher. anything lower feels STOCK.

=D



VOLK TE37 only....!

project plan- 86 TWINKIES - has Begun..

Basketweaving M-F 7pm plz contact superstarlevin for enrollment

:thumbup:

strmrdr23


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661 posts [100%]
Beacon Hill/Seattle WA

  » Reply  Edit


here is a comparison of 16v vs 20v builds. not sure if you in extrapolate any useful info from the 16v dyno #s - http://hachiroku.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17462




Showing off is a fool's idea of glory - Bruce Lee
kouki1986
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1232 posts [100%]
honolulu hawaii

  » Reply  Edit


This is a cool thread indeed and I'm in the same boat as elcuborican. I got an engine resting on the engine stand in my garage right now. It's a 7rib block and smallport head but I don't know if it is the high compression redtop as it used to run a turbo set up before. I want to build it, like elcuborican said. I want a daily drive and a reliable power during weekend fun.
Now this is the plan and please correct me guys if my route is wrong.
*pulled out the head and have a professional to refinish and make sure everything is right.
*rubuilt kit. well, since I'm pulling out the head minus well go ahead and rebuild the engine.
*cam shaft. Any good numbers to start? I'm not sure if 272 is reliable or are am I wrong?
*cam gears
*trd thin head gasket. To increase compression!
*haltech ecu
*finally... ITB's, I got this sanyo itbs and to accomodate I have a t3 adapter for it.
Well, there you have it folks so any good advice please don't hesitate to tell me or like I said please correct me if I'm wrong?

Thanks





http://www.carbonfibercollection.com

carbonfibercollection@yahoo.com

dr.occa




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2382 posts [93%]
The Lonestar State

 Re: (killer_siller) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by killer_siller »
...

AE101 throttles are as big as you'll ever need. AE111 throttles are to big for even the AE111.

I'm going to agree with killer_siller on this. FCRs don't even come any larger than 41mm (unless bored out but then how much material is really available before and/or after...)and we're talking about cycles that easily see higher rpm ranges than most Formula Atlantic motors let alone stock to slightly modified 4AGs.



86 Garage Magazine
"Strictly All Things 86"
dr.occa




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2382 posts [93%]
The Lonestar State

  » Reply  Edit


Hmmm, nice response there Jeff.

Ok, let me try:

There's a standard of inner venturi sizes that differentiate between a set make/model of carburetors irregardless of design e.g. flat slide/ round slide, butterfly, etc...that come standard equipped but can be altered according to manufacturer availability or customized by the end user (mikuni, solex, weber, delorto...) or are caste (i.e. flat/round slide motorcycle/snowmobile type carbs).

The inner venturi is what will determine ideal velocity per application i.e. combustion size, cross flow, reverse flow...valve diameter and lift...essentially fluid dynamics (which isn't necessarily accurate as unspent air/fuel mixture weights differ from that of exhaust gases and respond differently to any potential turbulence, etc...) The highest rate of air flow will be in the center most portion of the venturi body.

Matching each combustion chamber flow to that of the estimated cfm of the intended carburetor is the ideal goal. These are obviously only parts of the overall equation. Sonic/Velocity/Pulse tuning is another aspect to consider which is the ideal wave of the returning pulse (1st, 2nd, 3rd wave) contingent on the size of not only the carb/throttle body but also the stroke and overall displacement of the motor.

Math is obviously integral when determining the ideal details of each air/fuel delivery component that acts in concert with one another i.e. o.d./i.d. of throttle bodies/carbs, runner lengths and diameters, tapered/non-tapered runners, reduced and tapered ports, etc...combined stack & runner length are key factors in deciphering ideal hp/trq at any particular rpm.

Suffice it to say, all of this occurs behind the scenes and is part of the process along with the individual's personality & budget in determining the "appropriate" size of ITBs/Carbs.

How's that?

Modified by dr.occa at 7:27 AM 1/21/2011



86 Garage Magazine
"Strictly All Things 86"
kouki1986
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1232 posts [100%]
honolulu hawaii

  » Reply  Edit


nice response +1 for both killer and dr.
well, since there's no correction on my way of route im assuming my plan is correct?



http://www.carbonfibercollection.com

carbonfibercollection@yahoo.com

jondee86
Reggae Rules...



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4374 posts [96%]
Wellington, NZ

 Re: (kouki1986) » Reply  Edit


Hey... I think you are on the right path

And as for throttle theory... probably works good if you spend ALL your time at
full throttle. But, since in the real world, the throttle is constantly changing position,
you are better off researching what actually works on other cars being used in
similar applications.

Theoretically, it can be proved that a Bumblebee can't fly.....

Cheers... jondee86



jondee86 has been a member for 735,126 days.

Give a person a fish, they eat for a day. Suggest they search before posting, and they learn a skill for a lifetime.

dr.occa




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2382 posts [93%]
The Lonestar State

 Re: (killer_siller) » Reply  Edit


^ Agreed. One of the attractive features of the tried & true sidedraughts is the ability to decrease/increase the inner venturis. It's a shame that the flat/round slide typically don't come with this appealing tunability. All the more it's important to choose the ideal carburetor when going the route of the aforementioned carb types.



86 Garage Magazine
"Strictly All Things 86"
jondee86
Reggae Rules...



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4374 posts [96%]
Wellington, NZ

 Re: (killer_siller) » Reply  Edit


You are gonna have a hard job convincing me on this one If you consider throttle
bore and air velocity to be the two primary variables, sizing the throttles smaller than
that required for maximum rpm/power is usually a good thing for driveabilty. The BT
4AGE is a good example, as is the use of 45 DCOE's on a 1600cc engine.

Going down a size improves bottom end performance and throttle response, reduces
off idle stumbling, gives better economy, and will outdrive the larger "theoretically
optimum" throttles everywhere on the course except at the end of the long straight.

It just depends on what you want... real world driveability, or Formula Atlantic power
band. No theory here... just my observations of what works

Cheers... jondee86



jondee86 has been a member for 735,126 days.

Give a person a fish, they eat for a day. Suggest they search before posting, and they learn a skill for a lifetime.

dr.occa




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2382 posts [93%]
The Lonestar State

 Re: (jondee86) » Reply  Edit


It has to be cumulative of all the variables but the primary intended use of the motor is a major factor too.

For race applications, the course is going to play a large role in determining the make up of the build. Still, I don't necessarily believe you can only have one or the other.

If a car is strong enough in all the areas but not necessarily THE STRONGEST in a particular area, I believe THAT car has the winning edge and the outcome then becomes more dependent on driver. So that's my mentality behind having the best of both worlds.



86 Garage Magazine
"Strictly All Things 86"
jondee86
Reggae Rules...



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4374 posts [96%]
Wellington, NZ

 Re: (dr.occa) » Reply  Edit


My point exactly In a street driven car, you are looking for an overall package that
works well, or very well, in all situations. Having read of someone who achieved better
results in autocrossing by choking down his ITB's, I decided to try it myself. So far I
have been able to retain all the bottom end of a single throttle setup on my ST ITB's.
And that is with a very short trumpet !!

So everyone to their own. But I will take a strong bottom end and midrange over a
weak midrange and screaming top end every time

Cheers... jondee86



jondee86 has been a member for 735,126 days.

Give a person a fish, they eat for a day. Suggest they search before posting, and they learn a skill for a lifetime.

kouki1986
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1232 posts [100%]
honolulu hawaii

  » Reply  Edit


can anyone tell me what good ecu do i need for n/a set up?

engine:
4a-ge 16v n/a redtop smallport

here's the parts that might require an aftermarket ecu:
*hks 272 intake & 272 exhaust camshaft
*hks adjustable camgears
*sk sanyo itb's complete




http://www.carbonfibercollection.com

carbonfibercollection@yahoo.com

sirdeuce




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33 posts [100%]
Tollhouse CA

 Re: (kouki1986) » Reply  Edit


An observation, if I may. When I ran my VW's, the 'optimum tuned' scenario for carbs is a fantastic way to go! Yes, having oversized carbs will give tremendous high RPM operation! The farther over the optimum size you go on the throttle size the more sensitive the carbs become too! Under sized will give a daily driver the flexibility throughout most operating perameters, even when not tuned to a gnats tailpipe. The overall performance won't be tops, but you don't have to tune on a daily basis. But! If the carbs are matched to the engines flow rates and properly tuned, the performance off idle to the cams limit sweet! Only problem with carbs tuned properly is the tune changes with weather and altitude! Constantly needing a fine tuning every so often. If you want a reliable daily driver, better to tune on the low end of the size range. If you don't mind, or even enjoy tinkering, go for the properly sized set-up. If you plan on running wide open all the time and don't much care about an engine with the personality of a 16 year old girl, go oversize. I had several 10.5- 11.5 second VW's. Tuning changed throughout the day! Yes my carbs were oversized! Just my $.02.



"The unexplored life is not worth living"
Socrates
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