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xgrapher
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Bur Dubai Dubai

 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed Reply  Edit


Hey guyz

I contacted MS diyautotune to buy an appropriate MS for my Corolla AE101 powered by a 20V 4AGE Silvertop. In return, they listed down a number of questions for me to answer, almost all of which I have no clue about. Could you guyz pls pitch in your inputs, I've been looking around a lot but couldn't do it on my own.

Here is the copy/paste from the sales guyz email:

Please try and answer all questions as the two most people skip (4&5) are the most important for ignition control!

1. What year/make/model/engine/tranny? (Pretend you're at the parts store, ordering a starter.) If this isn't the original engine/electronics let me know that too.

2. Are you looking to control fuel only, ignition only, or fuel and ignition? Is there anything beyond these features that you are looking to control - fans or boost, for example?

3. What are the engine details (type, number of cylinders, previously fuel injected or carb'd?)

4. What type of ignition system does your car run- where is the crank angle sensor (CAS) or distributor trigger wheel and what type is it (Optical/LED Sensor? Hall Sensor? VR Sensor?)

5. How many teeth/windows/slots and what orientation does the CAS, crank trigger, and/or distributor wheel have? (any missing? all evenly spaced?)

6. Is there a distributor? Single/Multiple Coils? Coil on Plug?

7. Does this engine have a fast idle valve (IAC)? If so, how many wires are connected to it? Do you know if it is an on/off, pulse width modulated, thermal, or stepper type?

8. Rate yourself 1-5 on technical confidence in yourself. 1 being "I can't paint by numbers" and 5 being "I can probably build a car from scratch if I have the right documentation, and I'm resourceful enough to do some research and find some of my own answers." I need to know this as some of the 'less traveled' roads will require you to make modifications that in some cases I haven't performed myself yet and based on this response it will help me to know whether this type of solution is for you or not. I challenge you to 'stretch yourself' a little bit. You won't ever learn anything (about yourself and your abilities) if you don't try to do things that you're not quite sure you can do... and then find that you can.

9. Are you looking to build your own ECU from a kit or buy a pre-assembled ECU?

10. Are you open to retrofitting a different ignition system such as the Ford EDIS distributorless system or one of our crank trigger kits if it is determined that the MegaSquirt will not properly (or easily) control your factory ignition system? Many factory systems MegaSquirt can simply take control of, some it cannot. EDIS to the rescue! It's cheap, simple and works great!

Appreciate your help!



s24a
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259 posts [100%]
Canton Michigan

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (xgrapher) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by xgrapher »
Hey guyz

I contacted MS diyautotune to buy an appropriate MS for my Corolla AE101 powered by a 20V 4AGE Silvertop. In return, they listed down a number of questions for me to answer, almost all of which I have no clue about. Could you guyz pls pitch in your inputs, I've been looking around a lot but couldn't do it on my own.

Here is the copy/paste from the sales guyz email:

Please try and answer all questions as the two most people skip (4&5) are the most important for ignition control!

1. What year/make/model/engine/tranny? (Pretend you're at the parts store, ordering a starter.) If this isn't the original engine/electronics let me know that too.

A Silvertop would be from late 1991 until 1995. You need to answer the trans question with the one in your car. Engine obviously not original.

2. Are you looking to control fuel only, ignition only, or fuel and ignition? Is there anything beyond these features that you are looking to control - fans or boost, for example?

You want to control spark, fuel, VVT solenoid, and IAC (idle air control) minimally. Also desirable to control fan(s) with ECU, and load compensation for AC if equipped.

3. What are the engine details (type, number of cylinders, previously fuel injected or carb'd?)

Engine is originally fuel injected, high-resistance injectors (bottom feed) with return system line to tank. Injection as produced is bank-fire, not sequential, and has a knock sensor for detonation control. 4 cylinder inline engine type.

4. What type of ignition system does your car run- where is the crank angle sensor (CAS) or distributor trigger wheel and what type is it (Optical/LED Sensor? Hall Sensor? VR Sensor?)

Engine uses distributor based spark control, with a 24 tooth engine speed input and a 4 tooth (IIRC) spark position wheel. both are VR sensors, not hall or optical. CAS is in the distributor.

5. How many teeth/windows/slots and what orientation does the CAS, crank trigger, and/or distributor wheel have? (any missing? all evenly spaced?)

See above....24 and 4. No missing teeth but two outputs for information to present ECU and igniter.

6. Is there a distributor? Single/Multiple Coils? Coil on Plug?

Yes...distributor. No DIS or coil-on-plug as produced. There are conversions for both for MS as referenced on this forum.

7. Does this engine have a fast idle valve (IAC)? If so, how many wires are connected to it? Do you know if it is an on/off, pulse width modulated, thermal, or stepper type?

Yes....3 wire- force-balanced IAC. Stock ECU uses switched voltage reversing polarity to the IAC motor. Think the driver in the ECU is an H-bridge.

8. Rate yourself 1-5 on technical confidence in yourself. 1 being "I can't paint by numbers" and 5 being "I can probably build a car from scratch if I have the right documentation, and I'm resourceful enough to do some research and find some of my own answers." I need to know this as some of the 'less traveled' roads will require you to make modifications that in some cases I haven't performed myself yet and based on this response it will help me to know whether this type of solution is for you or not. I challenge you to 'stretch yourself' a little bit. You won't ever learn anything (about yourself and your abilities) if you don't try to do things that you're not quite sure you can do... and then find that you can.

9. Are you looking to build your own ECU from a kit or buy a pre-assembled ECU?

10. Are you open to retrofitting a different ignition system such as the Ford EDIS distributorless system or one of our crank trigger kits if it is determined that the MegaSquirt will not properly (or easily) control your factory ignition system? Many factory systems MegaSquirt can simply take control of, some it cannot. EDIS to the rescue! It's cheap, simple and works great!

Appreciate your help!

You have to answer 8, 9, and 10 as to your experience/comfort at assembly/debug of a kit you assemble versus buying pre-assembled.

I would suggest since you asked for help in description that you get a pre-assembled kit and wiring harness.

As for EDIS, it is a reliable Ford ignition system using a module and two waste-spark coils. You will have to utilize a 36-1 crank trigger system somehow, and if you want full sequential you will need a cam sensor, both of which MS can accomodate. CAS generally goes on the front balancer pulley (36-1 wheel) with a sensor on a bracket attached to the oil pump cover.

The distributor can be removed and hole plugged, and use a cam target wheel on the EXHAUST cam to generate the 50% window ON/OFF hall signal to the MS.

muythaibxr


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1035 posts [100%]

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (s24a) » Reply  Edit


I almost always recommend against EDIS. The MS can control the stock ignition, and using the stock ignition gives you the option of going fully sequential later really easily.

Ken

oldeskewltoy




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13133 posts [99%]
Portland

  » Reply  Edit


this thread is now stickied....


best 20V silvertop info I've seen in a while.

This thread is open... BUT PLEASE ONLY post known, proveable information here. There isn't much 20V silvertop info available(at least not in English), so lets use this to compile specific silvertop info.....

Thanks Hank (may I call you that??)



Information is POWER... learn the facts!!

http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/ USE it!

I've been wrong before... and at somepoint in time, I'll be wrong again

xgrapher
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Bur Dubai Dubai

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (s24a) » Reply  Edit


If people like you exist why do we need schools? Your post calms me down man. Look at you and 4AGE, a mother wouldn't know her kid as well as you know about 4AGEs. I've no words to thank you. Actually I'm not really so much excited about your reply coz I can now head to MS and grab my machine. I'm happy to meet geniuses like you whom I could have never met were it not for the internet.

Our friend here would like to stick with the stock ignition, I would also join him in supporting that since it would keep me from additional work of Ford EDIS installation. What's your take on this?

s24a
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259 posts [100%]
Canton Michigan

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (xgrapher) » Reply  Edit


There is nothing wrong with the stock ignition and the MS system on a 4AGE.
There main reason for going to the EDIS system is packaging in a RWD vehicle (not your concern) where the existing distributor interferes with the firewall (eg: AE86 cars).

Also, some people like the idea of sequential, and the 36-1 with a cam sensor gives them that capacity. The performance of sequential is pretty much indistinguishable from bank fire unless you are running boost and need long individual fuel pulses to fuel the engine.

Otherwise, both systems work well on any NA 4AGE.

If you don't want/need the extra hassle of a crankshaft pulley mounted target wheel (making and installing), then the stock distributor/coil/igniter should be plenty good......

oldeskewltoy




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13133 posts [99%]
Portland

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the only thing I'd add...

sequential injection is "cleaner". It is far easier to get a sequential injected car to pass emissions then it is for a batch fire injection.



Information is POWER... learn the facts!!

http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/ USE it!

I've been wrong before... and at somepoint in time, I'll be wrong again

s24a
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259 posts [100%]
Canton Michigan

 Re: (oldeskewltoy) » Reply  Edit


AGREED! And end-of-injection timing on sequential is the cleanest of the sequential strategies.....
xgrapher
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Bur Dubai Dubai

 Re: (s24a) » Reply  Edit


Now this is going to sound real dumb but how much power difference should I be expecting with an MS on my stock? Meanwhile, I'm forwarding your feedback to the MS sales guy, let's see what he has to say.
xgrapher
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Bur Dubai Dubai

 Re: (xgrapher) » Reply  Edit


Here are some pics, I can't seem to find the engine pic though, I'll take some snaps tomorrow and post them inshaa Allaah.


s24a
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259 posts [100%]
Canton Michigan

 Re: (xgrapher) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by xgrapher »
Now this is going to sound real dumb but how much power difference should I be expecting with an MS on my stock?

The biggest gain for the MS on an otherwise STOCK Silvertop, after tuning it, would be the air inlet restriction reduction by losing the Vane AirMeter and the resultant ability to run velocity stacks with low-restriction filters on the ITBs.

I would estimate this to give you about 5 to 7 percent HP increase over the factory setup, and approximately the same Torque figures.

Where you will make more gains is the flexibilty you now have to use different components (like BT ITBs, which are larger, flow more air), maybe a little higher lift cam profile with slightly longer duration (watch this, as too much you lose the VVT due to clash issues), and tune the VVT more aggressively. Right now it is pretty simplistic in operation.

You can do this across time, and record your tunes for the various componant changes. There can be be a great satifaction factor in knowing what is inside the calibration, and that you did it yourself!

muythaibxr


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1035 posts [100%]

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (s24a) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by s24a »
There is nothing wrong with the stock ignition and the MS system on a 4AGE.
There main reason for going to the EDIS system is packaging in a RWD vehicle (not your concern) where the existing distributor interferes with the firewall (eg: AE86 cars).

Also, some people like the idea of sequential, and the 36-1 with a cam sensor gives them that capacity. The performance of sequential is pretty much indistinguishable from bank fire unless you are running boost and need long individual fuel pulses to fuel the engine.

Otherwise, both systems work well on any NA 4AGE.

If you don't want/need the extra hassle of a crankshaft pulley mounted target wheel (making and installing), then the stock distributor/coil/igniter should be plenty good......


You can do sequential fuel just fine with the stock distributor. The main difference you will notice with sequential is that low-rev throttle response will be better, and you might be able to get better fuel economy if you play with the injection timing a bit.

The main difference with 36-1 (without EDIS, letting the MS directly decode it) is that timing under fast acceleration will be more accurate.

Ken

s24a
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259 posts [100%]
Canton Michigan

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (muythaibxr) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by muythaibxr »


You can do sequential fuel just fine with the stock distributor. The main difference you will notice with sequential is that low-rev throttle response will be better, and you might be able to get better fuel economy if you play with the injection timing a bit.

The main difference with 36-1 (without EDIS, letting the MS directly decode it) is that timing under fast acceleration will be more accurate.

Ken

Ken...How do you determine with a stock distributor where TDC Cylinder #1 is in the pattern? You can MODIFY the stock distributor, or you can ADD a cam sensor elsewhere, but the present 24/4 pattern on the two outputs gives you no relational data as to #1 compression TDC versus any other cylinder. Simply 4 TDCs and the 24 tooth seperation timing for speed determination.

As for sequential giving better throttle response than bank fire at low revs, that is debatable. More of an issue of camshaft and induction system (backflow) than injection pattern.

That is why I mentioned End-of-Injection_Timing fueling strategies. Here you can precisely end the fueling to try and avoid overlap and backflow. The added fuel is positioned at the start of the injection, which needs to be recalculated almost in realtime as speed/load requirements of the engine are changing.

xgrapher
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Bur Dubai Dubai

 Re: (s24a) » Reply  Edit


I thought ITBs aren't recommended for 20Vs as they have good enough intakes. At least 3 different forums said that, as what I can remember?
xgrapher
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Bur Dubai Dubai

 Re: (xgrapher) » Reply  Edit


Okay guyz, the MS sales guy has another question:

Please have a look inside the distributor - could you check for sure if that's a 4 tooth wheel or a 24 tooth wheel? Let me know what you find.

Thanks,

Matt Cramer
DIYAutotune.com Technical Support


Can somebody help me out with this one or will I have to look in physically?

Thanks

s24a
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259 posts [100%]
Canton Michigan

 Re: (xgrapher) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by xgrapher »
Okay guyz, the MS sales guy has another question:

Please have a look inside the distributor - could you check for sure if that's a 4 tooth wheel or a 24 tooth wheel? Let me know what you find.

Thanks,

Matt Cramer
DIYAutotune.com Technical Support


Can somebody help me out with this one or will I have to look in physically?

Thanks

OK... did some research here, and first off, apologies to muythaibxr.
According to this post by Barry:

http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=55377

The ST/BT has a synch pulse and a 24 tooth wheel speed signal.

See this picture:

http://media.photobucket.com/i...8.jpg

This is the 24 tooth wheel. The synch pulse tooth will be underneath it.

So this is the information to give to Matt Cramer for his info.

xgrapher
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Bur Dubai Dubai

 Re: (s24a) » Reply  Edit


Here he comes with another question:

It looks as if there is a second trigger wheel under it - you can see the sensor at the bottom of the picture. How many teeth are on the second wheel?

Thanks,

Matt Cramer
DIYAutotune.com Technical Support

I looked at the pic over and over again but couldn't find any sensor.

s24a
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259 posts [100%]
Canton Michigan

 Re: (xgrapher) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by xgrapher »
Here he comes with another question:

It looks as if there is a second trigger wheel under it - you can see the sensor at the bottom of the picture. How many teeth are on the second wheel?

Thanks,

Matt Cramer
DIYAutotune.com Technical Support

I looked at the pic over and over again but couldn't find any sensor.

Look here - go to post #5 for link:

http://www.toymods.org.au/foru...butor

Link is:
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h23.pdf

Page #13 shows the G1 and G2 pickups. Cam sensor looks to be a 50% duty-cycle trigger with 2 polarity pickups(G1 and G2).

Send this info and possible the PDF to DIYAutotune......

muythaibxr


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1035 posts [100%]

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (s24a) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by s24a »

Ken...How do you determine with a stock distributor where TDC Cylinder #1 is in the pattern? You can MODIFY the stock distributor, or you can ADD a cam sensor elsewhere, but the present 24/4 pattern on the two outputs gives you no relational data as to #1 compression TDC versus any other cylinder. Simply 4 TDCs and the 24 tooth seperation timing for speed determination.

The 20v doesn't have 24+4, it has 24+1 with 2 G sensors. You just wire up only one of the G sensors, and then you have the correct information to do sequential.

There are 24 teeth on the Ne wheel, then 1 tooth on the "G" wheel, with G1 and G2 sensors. I have my 20v silvertop set up with Ne hooked to the main tach input, and G2 hooked up to an lm1815 VR conditioner which provides the cam information. I'm using the MS3 (MegaSquirt 3) EMS to run the engine now with COP coils from a 1zz-fe and sequential injection with the stock dizzy just there to provide the trigger wheel(s).

Quote »

As for sequential giving better throttle response than bank fire at low revs, that is debatable. More of an issue of camshaft and induction system (backflow) than injection pattern.

It's both. If you run sequential, you can inject at just the right time to avoid the backflow and other issues and have the fuel just go into the engine instead.

Quote »

That is why I mentioned End-of-Injection_Timing fueling strategies. Here you can precisely end the fueling to try and avoid overlap and backflow. The added fuel is positioned at the start of the injection, which needs to be recalculated almost in realtime as speed/load requirements of the engine are changing.

Yeah, I agree, but you can't do that without sequential injection, or at least semi-sequential.

With MS3 we can time to beginning, middle, or end of pulse.

Ken

xgrapher
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41 posts [100%]
Bur Dubai Dubai

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (muythaibxr) » Reply  Edit


Here are the engine pics:






xgrapher
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Bur Dubai Dubai

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (xgrapher) » Reply  Edit


I've finally gotten a quote from DIYAutotune and I want you guyz to take a look at it. Also I'm totally confused about the wideband options, I would like to keep a minimal budget at this time but wouldn't want any mandatory stuff to miss out. Here is Matt's email:

Hello,

This quote should meet your needs. The unused stepper IAC outputs can
operate relays to control the VVT and fans. You'll need a power resistor
for the closing coil on the IAC valve.

MS2357-C $405 Assembled Megasquirt-II with V3.57 PCB
MOD_2357-ZDB2 Zeal VR Conditioner + 2 logic level ignition outputs $70
MOD_x357-VR_IN: Jumper unit for VR Ignition Input $0
JimStim-C $88 Assembled JimStim test board
MSHarness $65 12' wiring harness
IATwPiggy $22.25 Intake Air Temperature Sensor
38NPT-Bung_A $9 Aluminum bung for IAT sensor (Also available in
stainless steel)
TuneCable $5.50 6' DB9 tuning cable
USB-2920 $20 (Only needed if your laptop doesn’t have a true DB9 port)
Subtotal without wideband-- $684.75


Wideband Options—

LC-1 without gauge $199 (you can still view real-time AFR and datalog
AFR through your laptop)
LC-1 with Westach analog gauge $258
LC-1 with DB digital gauge $209 (available in red or blue)
LC-1 with G series analog gauge $249
LC-1 with XD-16 digital gauge $299
LM-2 basic data logger with one sensor $349
LM-2 deluxe kit with one O2 sensor $479
LM-2 deluxe kit with two O2 sensors $669

I think this will give you a pretty good start in the right direction.
This quote is good for 30 days. For custom orders like this one, we will
need to set this up via email or telephone. We typically have a week or
so of lead time for building custom units. I'll just need a shipping
address and a complete list of what you are planning to order to get you
a full shipping quote. We can take many different forms of payment - we
prefer PayPal or accepting a credit card over the phone, but we have
other options as well. Let me know what works for you. Please let me
know if you have any further questions; I'll be happy to answer them and
get things squared away before you order.

Thanks,

Matt Cramer
DIYAutotune.com Technical Support

muythaibxr


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1035 posts [100%]

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (xgrapher) » Reply  Edit


The only thing I think I disagree with on there is the power resistor for the idle valve. In my experience the idle valve works much better if you have a 2-wire to 3-wire converter circuit.

As far as wideband, I wouldn't attempt to street-tune a car without one. Just the LC-1 + sensor is sufficient ($199 option).

On my ms2 setup before I switched to MS3, I was using the Zeal board for the second trigger conditioner as well (I designed that board, mainly for rx7's but it works on the 20v too) so I know that will work well on the 20v.

Ken

xgrapher
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Bur Dubai Dubai

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (muythaibxr) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by muythaibxr »
The only thing I think I disagree with on there is the power resistor for the idle valve. In my experience the idle valve works much better if you have a 2-wire to 3-wire converter circuit.

As far as wideband, I wouldn't attempt to street-tune a car without one. Just the LC-1 + sensor is sufficient ($199 option).

On my ms2 setup before I switched to MS3, I was using the Zeal board for the second trigger conditioner as well (I designed that board, mainly for rx7's but it works on the 20v too) so I know that will work well on the 20v.

Ken

Okay so you're saying I should take the stuff with LC-1 + sensor? And what is a 2 wire to 3 wire converter circuit, what is being converted? I would appreciate a bit more of an explanation as I'm a total newbie.

And what is s24's take on this?

s24a
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259 posts [100%]
Canton Michigan

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (xgrapher) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by xgrapher »

Okay so you're saying I should take the stuff with LC-1 + sensor? And what is a 2 wire to 3 wire converter circuit, what is being converted? I would appreciate a bit more of an explanation as I'm a total newbie.

And what is s24's take on this?

I agree with muythaibxr on only needing the LC-1 WRAF sensor.
It can also be configured to give a binary switched output as well, but the wideband allows more flexibility and should generally be used even after calibration.
Not real familiar with the Zeal board, so muxythaibxr I would guess can explain details.

I also agree that a simple power transistor isn't going to do the trick with your IAC. Maybe DIYAutotune thinks its a Ford Idle Bypass solenoid and takes a simple PWM signal to ground. The Toyota IAC is not. It is a true bidirectional DC motor.

Here is a link to an H-Bridge driver circuit that could work, and uses two wires to control the PWM and direction through the H-Bridge. The motor is connected to 12V like on the Toyota, so the system is wired similarly.

http://www.robotroom.com/HBridge.html

I don't know if any MS comes with this type of output driver or not, but I guess it can be wired in through the proto area of the MS board. Might want to see if DIYAutotune can do something like this for IAC control, AND, do they have an off-the shelf SW module for the control interface.....

soulshadow


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120 posts [100%]
Fayetteville AR

  » Reply  Edit


I bought the LC-1 Kit with blue gauge from someone off Ebay. It was practically brand new unused. They guy just didn't know what to do with it and sold his car before he got it. I paid roughly $270 for it but this was over 2.5 years ago.

The MS isn't a plug and play type of deal. You actually need to know what your doing and willing to step into dark waters. But the greatest thing is learning and trial and error. Sometimes it gets very frustrating since nothing works or things don't seem to appear right. over 3 years now and I'm not done with my MS2 yet nor has it been even installed.

xgrapher
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Bur Dubai Dubai

 Re: (soulshadow) » Reply  Edit


s24a, I sent Matt your's and muythaibxr's comments and this is what he said:

I've seen the approach we talked about used successfully on BMWs, which
also use a 3 wire, bidirectional valve. The resistor lets a small amount
of current through to make the valve close normally. The ECU supplies a
pulse width modulated ground to the other side to open the valve.

We do not have an H-bridge circuit available - if you want one of those,
you'll have to solder it up on your own.

Thanks,

Matt Cramer
DIYAutotune.com Technical Support

What do you guyz think?

s24a
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259 posts [100%]
Canton Michigan

 Re: (xgrapher) » Reply  Edit


I guess I would have to see what Matt is speaking of for better understanding.
The bi-directional DC motor is pushed and pulled to get smooth movement.

There is generally a bias on the actuator due to the the action that vacuum in the intake makes against the rotating variable orifice, especially at positions close to idle (eg: almost closed). The response around this decreased area of action is not linear at all.

xgrapher
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Bur Dubai Dubai

 Re: (s24a) » Reply  Edit


I'm getting a bit worried now if I would be able to install it myself. If I can't I would not go for it. Can somebody list down the things I would need to do to get the who system up and running? This will help in assessing if I qualify. Thanks
s24a
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Canton Michigan

 Re: (xgrapher) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by xgrapher »
I'm getting a bit worried now if I would be able to install it myself. If I can't I would not go for it. Can somebody list down the things I would need to do to get the who system up and running? This will help in assessing if I qualify. Thanks

If I were you, I would wait if you can for a bit.

See this forum thread:

http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=73974

It looks like Matt Cramer is looking to create what you want. If he gets a ST (or even BT) vehicle and can make a successful conversion, then he has taken out the guesswork, and you will also be better off since DIYAutotune will have a base tune to provide.

You might ask Matt if this is is the most logical thing to do.....

Sam_Q
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Australia vic

 Re: (s24a) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by s24a »

The biggest gain for the MS on an otherwise STOCK Silvertop, after tuning it, would be the air inlet restriction reduction by losing the Vane AirMeter and the resultant ability to run velocity stacks with low-restriction filters on the ITBs.

I would estimate this to give you about 5 to 7 percent HP increase over the factory setup, and approximately the same Torque figures.

Where you will make more gains is the flexibilty you now have to use different components (like BT ITBs, which are larger, flow more air), maybe a little higher lift cam profile with slightly longer duration (watch this, as too much you lose the VVT due to clash issues), and tune the VVT more aggressively. Right now it is pretty simplistic in operation.

a few smaller points here I disagree with, no big deal. Independent filters are quite commonly quite restrictive and they suck in hot air. The factory design of both 20V airboxes is really good and for people who can keep it should look into the possibility.

I can't see blacktop throttles needing a different tune because no engine that's making less that around 200hp should be limited by silvertop throttles. So without the engine flowing more the throttles won't limit the air and hence flow more. Although your point of the flexibility is absolutely true

The VVT operation in a blacktop is far from simplistic with it turning on dependent to load, temperature, revs, etc.. With aftermarket I have yet to hear of anyone doing anything else but turning it on at 2000 and off at about 6000 with no other input. But I could be misunderstanding you here.

Open to correction on any points I make.



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