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 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details NeededFirst  < 1 2   Last
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s24a
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259 posts [100%]
Canton Michigan

 Re: (Sam_Q) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by Sam_Q »

a few smaller points here I disagree with, no big deal. Independent filters are quite commonly quite restrictive and they suck in hot air. The factory design of both 20V airboxes is really good and for people who can keep it should look into the possibility.

I can't see blacktop throttles needing a different tune because no engine that's making less that around 200hp should be limited by silvertop throttles. So without the engine flowing more the throttles won't limit the air and hence flow more. Although your point of the flexibility is absolutely true

The VVT operation in a blacktop is far from simplistic with it turning on dependent to load, temperature, revs, etc.. With aftermarket I have yet to hear of anyone doing anything else but turning it on at 2000 and off at about 6000 with no other input. But I could be misunderstanding you here.

Open to correction on any points I make.

Sam.....

My comment regarding BT TBs is based on the Megasquirts's abil,ity to use Alpha-N or modified blended Alpha-N/MAP strategies. The BTs TPS will give a different response than an ST's due to reduced area differences on opening and closing the throttle.

I agree that ITBs running individual filters CAN be more restrictive. Depends on the filter setup, of course. As for sucking hot air, the plenum also can get hot, depending on the installation. Ducting to/around individual filters can direct the cooler air at or into them. Biggest advantage is more cross-sectional area of filter compared to the stock type filter box. The stock ones are quite good however.

VVT operation has always been a BIG discussion topic on this forum. Evidently early STs are different from later STs, which are again differnt compared to BTs, which might vary also with year and transmission choice.

My comment was generic, that with strategy you can calibrate VVT to come on, go off, and come back on at various RPMs, as well as the same with TPS, and temperature. So it can be made different than the stock response. As to better, well, that is a different discussion.......best is continuous cam PHASING, not the "bang-bang" type the 4AGE-20V has. Hmmmm....wonder if anyone has tried to PWM that VVT solenoid with any results?

Overall, your comments are good as they frame the caveats that any swap/mod will potentially encounter, and allow the person attempting this activity to have the best possible knowledge before going through with it. As OLDESKEWLTOY states, "information is power"



muythaibxr


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1035 posts [100%]

 Re: (s24a) » Reply  Edit


The MS3 can actually turn off/on the VVT on MS3 on a table based on load/rpm/CLT/etc...

PWMing the VVT solenoid on a 20v would be almost useless since there is no intake cam wheel with which to determine the cam position, you couldn't reliably target a particular position.

All the continuously variable VVT setups out there use a PWM valve where 50% duty means don't move, lower means less overlap, higher means more overlap (I might have that backwards but that's essentially how they work), and they have a toothed wheel on the intake camshaft so the ECU can tell what the current position is and target a position using a closed-loop algorithm.

Ken

s24a
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259 posts [100%]
Canton Michigan

 Re: (muythaibxr) » Reply  Edit


I know that it takes an inlet cam sensor to accurately determine where the cam phase is. So that would require additional HW, plus the SW to control even if it was an advance-only (retard-only) type of control.

Just mention it as a passing thought. I really don't think it would be practical to do unless BOTH cams could be phased, which requires even MORE HW and SW!

I also know the MS3 can do multi-table control of ON/OFF for the VVT, as can some other aftermarket ECUs also.....

xgrapher
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41 posts [100%]
Bur Dubai Dubai

 Re: (s24a) » Reply  Edit


Alright, I want to close this deal and have the stuff here. Can you guyz list me down detailed installation steps I'll have to take. My main idea for the purchase was to read engine information (rpm, temp, etc.) and any thing beyond that is plain bonus. Although I'm a total 'dont know dummy' with ecu's but I can assure you guyz that I can get instal it if properly guided. Anybody in for mentorship?
Sam_Q
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579 posts [99%]
Australia vic

 Re: (s24a) » Reply  Edit


s24a: I see where your coming from now, yes for the same degree of opening the blacktop throttles will allow for more airflow and hence need a different rate of adjustment for a throttle position tune. It's a good point and I am sure many wouldn't think of it, I will easily admit I didn't at first.

I have thought about pulse width control for the VVT solenoid however I would guess in my limited knowledge that the VVT solenoid would overheat due to it not being rated for the higher currents during the open/closing duration. You would probably also need some sort of feedback too I guess, I have seen something akin to a crank angle sensor on a VVT gear for feedback on a GMH 6 cylinder engine. No doubt a fascinating concept though.

I like your line of thinking and yes this thread is great in terms of pure facts, sadly such things in forum threads can at times be rare.



My website - conversion parts, articles, services...

s-86.com

-20v RWD conversion parts for sale

xgrapher
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Bur Dubai Dubai

 Re: (xgrapher) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by xgrapher »
Alright, I want to close this deal and have the stuff here. Can you guyz list me down detailed installation steps I'll have to take. My main idea for the purchase was to read engine information (rpm, temp, etc.) and any thing beyond that is plain bonus. Although I'm a total 'dont know dummy' with ecu's but I can assure you guyz that I can get instal it if properly guided. Anybody in for mentorship?

Nobody seems to be interested...

xgrapher
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41 posts [100%]
Bur Dubai Dubai

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (s24a) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by s24a »

Engine is originally fuel injected, high-resistance injectors (bottom feed) with return system line to tank. Injection as produced is bank-fire, not sequential, and has a knock sensor for detonation control. 4 cylinder inline engine type.


The injectors are side feed types as what I've been reading about silvertops. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

muythaibxr


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1035 posts [100%]

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (xgrapher) » Reply  Edit


yes, they are side-feed.

You'll have a bit of trouble getting anyone to list all the steps for install b/c listing them is a large task by itself. I've been meaning to do some docs of my install, but have not had time.

Ken

Jeff82KP61
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Salt Lake City Utah

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (muythaibxr) » Reply  Edit


Ken,

I am sorry to hear about your injury. Maybe if during your down time you could document a little bit more information on what you have done with your 20V ST conversion. I know several people here, especially myself would find great value in this.

I am new to this, but attempting to swap a 20V silver top into my 82 starlet. Finding good information about running the 20V ST on MS3 is hard to find. I know that when I tackle this project fully, I would be willing to donate money for useful information.

Its just something to keep in mind Ken. I am sure you are very busy, but I wanted to thank you for being so informative on these topics. You are a great resource for readers like myself.


xgrapher
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Bur Dubai Dubai

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (Jeff82KP61) » Reply  Edit


Injury??? Hope you recover soon!

When I had initiated this post I had no EFI knowledge whatsoever. Now I think I'm through and thorough. Just a couple of days back I fixed a wiring problem where the AFM open/close switch ground supply was idiotically connected to the ECUs check connector output by some "swap specialist". It's a long story but to cut things short, I had a chance to completely understand the distributor and it's pickup, the coils, the igniter, the AFM the TPS. On the other hand, I have also gained a lot of information on electronics as I've put my hands on to Arduino. Just a couple of days back I had people lined up to see me remote starting my car by SMS.

Even better is that my stuff has arrived from DIYAutotune. I've the MS2 with that emulator and wideband with gauge. I don't know if the emulator was necessary but I looks good for sure. I know it's a hectic job to take down the whole installation on the internet but for noobs like me it's exciting. I've decided to do completely remove the existing wiring and ECU (it even has an ABS computer hanging on to it) and then lift up the engine, clean up the bay, and wire it with MS2.

All I would need from you guys is to help me out wherever/whenever I'm stuck. I'm planning to make an installation guide instead of a "my installation experience". Hence, I'll post the entire operation after I've completed. This should serve to all who want to MS'up their 4ages.

Now to begin, the MS wiring diagram looks very simple except:

1. Didn't find any knock sensor wiring.
2. Injector 1 & 2 are controlled together (and 3 & 4 together) though there are pins for each injector.

I've some questions related to the ignition but probably I'll think about going with the 1ZZ like Ken if it worth it?

Another stupidity I did while ordering was I noticed an IAT sensor in the quote for USD 35 and like a jerk I told Matt that I already have one. He briefly mentioned that it's on the AFM but I didn't understand what he meant. Now I realize that I can't loose my AFM. Anyway, will think about ordering it later.


wrenchdad


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339 posts [100%]
Natchez MS

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (xgrapher) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by xgrapher »
Injury??? Hope you recover soon!

Ken, has a torn rotater cuff.

Now to begin, the MS wiring diagram looks very simple except:

1. Didn't find any knock sensor wiring.
2. Injector 1 & 2 are controlled together (and 3 & 4 together) though there are pins for each injector.

I've some questions related to the ignition but probably I'll think about going with the 1ZZ like Ken if it worth it?

Another stupidity I did while ordering was I noticed an IAT sensor in the quote for USD 35 and like a jerk I told Matt that I already have one. He briefly mentioned that it's on the AFM but I didn't understand what he meant. Now I realize that I can't loose my AFM. Anyway, will think about ordering it later.

ON the knock sensor there isn't any onboard knock sensor but there are some external boards/circuits out there that can be built, I am not using my but probably should add it to my next upgrade. I am running a MS2 running the extra code. If I remember correctly the circuit is in the docs, a search should be about to find it, if you can't let me know and I will see if I still have one I can post up.

Ok, if you are going COP for spark, then also you will have to build the circuits to drive the 1ZZ coils, which are the ones I am planning on using when I install my MS3 unit. The circuits are pretty simple to build, basic pullup circuits are in the docs. I am using two dual coil packs off a 99 rolla and driving them from the LED using some pullups, been that way for years, no issues.

Injectors, on the MS2 units are set up for batch injection, BUT if you get the needed dizzy inputs to go full seq then the MS2 will support it using some of the latest firmware code BUT again you will have to build the extra high current driver circuits.

On the IAT sensor, I would go with the open element type for the quick recovery it gives for heat soaks, you didn't state if you were going with stacks on your ITBs or if your engine is even the 20V version but either way the open element is better IMHO.

Sorry to keep saying build this circuit and that circuit but that is why its call DIY, BUT I have been thinking that to reduce the amount of extra circuits need that it should be possible to use the MS3X board even with a MS2 unit. That board has most if not all the circuits that you would need to go with full seq on fuel and spark plus the circuits for the needed dizzy inputs.

ON firmware, I am using at present the latest MS2 alpha code 303V, but like I said I have a MS3 unit plus a MS3X board that I will be going to when I get the time to, and be able to do without my daily 20V driver to do the rewire of the engine bay.

hopes some of this helps, let me know if you need anything else
later wd





" Second place is just the first loser" the late Dale Earnhardt
xgrapher
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41 posts [100%]
Bur Dubai Dubai

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (wrenchdad) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by wrenchdad »

ON the knock sensor there isn't any onboard knock sensor but there are some external boards/circuits out there that can be built, I am not using my but probably should add it to my next upgrade. I am running a MS2 running the extra code. If I remember correctly the circuit is in the docs, a search should be about to find it, if you can't let me know and I will see if I still have one I can post up.

If retarding timing on knock doesn't really matter that much I wouldn't mind skipping it to keep things simple at this point of time.

Ok, if you are going COP for spark, then also you will have to build the circuits to drive the 1ZZ coils, which are the ones I am planning on using when I install my MS3 unit. The circuits are pretty simple to build, basic pullup circuits are in the docs. I am using two dual coil packs off a 99 rolla and driving them from the LED using some pullups, been that way for years, no issues.

Which LED are you using as signal? Can you please put up a rough diagram of it? You don't have to explain the pull up method as I can pretty much handle it

Injectors, on the MS2 units are set up for batch injection, BUT if you get the needed dizzy inputs to go full seq then the MS2 will support it using some of the latest firmware code BUT again you will have to build the extra high current driver circuits.

I'm okay with batch as sequential didn't really prove to give power gains and being in the Oil territory fuel doesn't cost much. I just noticed that MS2 showed 4 pinouts for injectors and yet it joins them into 2 pairs which made me think that sequential is ready to go. Isn't the dizzy input already being fed to the MS? Unless you meant the TDC pickup.

On the IAT sensor, I would go with the open element type for the quick recovery it gives for heat soaks, you didn't state if you were going with stacks on your ITBs or if your engine is even the 20V version but either way the open element is better IMHO.

Sorry I don't understand an "open element type", can you please explain? My engine is a 20V Silvertop and currently I was thinking of just keeping it open with some filters.

Sorry to keep saying build this circuit and that circuit but that is why its call DIY, BUT I have been thinking that to reduce the amount of extra circuits need that it should be possible to use the MS3X board even with a MS2 unit. That board has most if not all the circuits that you would need to go with full seq on fuel and spark plus the circuits for the needed dizzy inputs.

That's okay, I've already built an 8 channel board of MOSFETs that can run 30 Amp relays. I thought that was the best to begin with for any microcontroller based stuff.

ON firmware, I am using at present the latest MS2 alpha code 303V, but like I said I have a MS3 unit plus a MS3X board that I will be going to when I get the time to, and be able to do without my daily 20V driver to do the rewire of the engine bay.

hopes some of this helps, let me know if you need anything else
later wd


This really helps, much appreciated!


wrenchdad


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339 posts [100%]
Natchez MS

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (xgrapher) » Reply  Edit


Ok,

I didn't ask which rev board do you have? rev 3.0, 2.2 or 3.57? I will assume its one of the 3s and go with that.

here is a link that shows the board layout and where to pick off for the spark.

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2....html

It also has a picture of the inside of the dizzy. I cut out two teeth 180 degrees out to make mine a dual 12-1 wheel for my dual coil packs. BUT I will be going back to NO teeth cut and using one of the other triggers from the dizzy so that I can go to full seq spark and fuel with my MS3 unit. As you can see A and B spark are coming off the two outside LEDs along with a 330ohms pullup, but that value is from memory so check first, it might be closer to 1K instead.

These engines have to wheels in the dizzy, one with 24 teeth and a second wheel with two teeth using two pickups for the two teeth wheel. That is how Toyota is getting its TDC location, there isn't a sensor on the crank directly.

OK, on the IAT sensor, there is one that is a "closed" type meaning it could even be used as a CLT sensor it is made completely from brass therefore the actual sensing element is "closed" inside the brass and that makes the brass like a small heatsink that has to also change with the temp. BUT the "open" type of element has the sensing element exposed so that it can quickly adjust to changes in air temp BUT will not work as a CLT sensor. here is a link from DIYautotune of the open type. second link the closed type

http://www.diyautotune.com/cat....html

http://www.diyautotune.com/cat....html

I use the open type in my filter box and even after getting heat soaked it will be back to correct after a minute of drive and getting some air over it. BUT of course I am using the stock setup for filter box along with a cold air intake system that I made. SO no open stacks for me, like I said its my daily driver and with a 100mile round trip to work needed something that I would have to clean and could just replace on the filter side of things.

NP on helping lots of others have help me just trying to do my part too.

later wd






" Second place is just the first loser" the late Dale Earnhardt
muythaibxr


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1035 posts [100%]

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (xgrapher) » Reply  Edit


Seq does not help power but it helps smoothness, drivability, and throttle response. That is why I use it (on ms3).

Ken

xgrapher
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41 posts [100%]
Bur Dubai Dubai

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (muythaibxr) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by muythaibxr »
Seq does not help power but it helps smoothness, drivability, and throttle response. That is why I use it (on ms3).

Can you really feel it? I don't know much but most mechanics here say that past 2k rpm everything is the same.

Is it possible to do sequential with MS2 + MSnextra?

xgrapher
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Bur Dubai Dubai

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (xgrapher) » Reply  Edit


Ken, I humbly request you to document your 1zz coil pack upgrade. It will help tremendously. Thanks
muythaibxr


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1035 posts [100%]

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (xgrapher) » Reply  Edit


It is most noticible at low revs and just off idle, but I do notice a small difference at all revs, and fuel economy is definitely better (Re: seq).

IMO, there were some weird tuning problems that I was able to tune around that just disappear with seq too. Fuel cut engagement/disengagement is much easier to tune with seq.

I will document this stuff when I can actually type fast again. Just had rotator cuff surgery and am typing 1-handed for the next few weeks.

Ken

20v silvertop
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28 posts [100%]
longisland ny

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (xgrapher) » Reply  Edit


what throttle cable did you use on the silvertop swap?

wrenchdad


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339 posts [100%]
Natchez MS

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (20v silvertop) » Reply  Edit


My is a FWD install, first time around I found a realy long cable from a toyota truck, wrecked that car, hit a deer. For my second install, another FWD 92 rolla, it came with cruise control, SO wanted to use the stock cable but as you probably know stock cable comes in from the left to right, way, way too short to come in the normal way for a 20V hookup. Did some studying on that and came up with a way to use the shorter stock cable by changing the bell crank out on the ITBs and making a new mount for the cable end out of a couple of pieces of aluminum bar stock. For the bell crank I used the one that was on the stock 4AFE engine throttle body. I removed the shaft of the 20V bell crank and replaced it with a longer metric fine threaded bolt with a self locking nut. I locked it to the 20v throttle by drilling and tapping for a small socket head screw into the return spring bracket.

It all sounds difficult but it was really pretty simple and has worked perfectly for a couple of years now.

If you need some pics of it let me know and I will try to get some.

later wd



" Second place is just the first loser" the late Dale Earnhardt
20v silvertop
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28 posts [100%]
longisland ny

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (wrenchdad) » Reply  Edit


yea if you could that would be helpful cause i"m putting the swap in a 94 corolla ..what car did the throttle cable came out of?
wrenchdad


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339 posts [100%]
Natchez MS

 Re: 4AGE Silvertop Technical Details Needed (20v silvertop) » Reply  Edit


The cable I am using now is the stock one for the Four Door LE 1992 rolla.

I will try to get some pics and post a link for my flixr account.

give me a few minutes.

wd

edit: here is a link to my flickr pics
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25999278@N07/?saved=1

later wd





" Second place is just the first loser" the late Dale Earnhardt
rc.square24
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326 posts [100%]
Vancouver BC

  » Reply  Edit


I noticed on ST ITBs there are some that has 2 spring mechanisms with a metal linkage for the butterflies while some has only one spring return mechanism to close the flaps. Does anyone know the difference between the two? Early/late versions perhaps?



wrenchdad


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339 posts [100%]
Natchez MS

 Re: (rc.square24) » Reply  Edit


Two spring version are the early type and the single ones are late versions

wd



" Second place is just the first loser" the late Dale Earnhardt
dre' from barbados
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queens new york

  » Reply  Edit


hi this is dre' from barbados i'm new here just asking for some help i have a 7age i built,driving ok but burning rich&in the high rpm it's lazy what can i do to get more torque&stop the excess gas burning?
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