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 BT 20V cam timing - FSM incorrect
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morgan
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6446 posts [93%]
just be glad your not here, nj

 Q for someone with a stock BT Reply  Edit


a friend of mine is disassembling his BT for a freshening up. the manual shows the exhaust cam/cam gear to be set up with the knock pin in the slot without the "5", but when he got it, the knock pin was in the "5" slot.

the question is, where does it go? anyone got a pic of their running setup?
thanks, Craig



haha cali...i got one of you 86's, and your not getting it back.
my 20v in an 86 swap guide
my mess of an 86...
*east coast toyotas forum*
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.


jondee86
Reggae Rules...



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4374 posts [96%]
Wellington, NZ

 Re: Q for someone with a stock BT (morgan) » Reply  Edit


Chances are the difference is 5 deg or half a tooth. Engine should run with either
setting, but I would suggest you research why there are two settings ? Might be to
do with octane ratings or emissions, or after head has been cut a certain amount ?

Does the pully have a second set of dimples and alignments marks ?

Cheers... jondee86



jondee86 has been a member for 735,126 days.

Give a person a fish, they eat for a day. Suggest they search before posting, and they learn a skill for a lifetime.

morgan
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6446 posts [93%]
just be glad your not here, nj

 Re: Q for someone with a stock BT (jondee86) » Reply  Edit


its more than 5 degrees, look in the pic. theres 3 spokes on the exhaust cam gear. the one at 6 o'clock has the "5" imprinted on it, the one at 2 o'clock doesnt. both spokes have grooves for the knock pin on the camshaft though. so thats 120 degrees difference. i told him to take the head off and see if the valves are bent, since it was set up opposite of what the manual says, and the BT is an interference motor. motor is stock, supposedly. cam gears certainly are.



haha cali...i got one of you 86's, and your not getting it back.
my 20v in an 86 swap guide
my mess of an 86...
*east coast toyotas forum*
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.
balmo




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4927 posts [100%]
Brentwood CA

 Re: Q for someone with a stock BT (morgan) » Reply  Edit


Sorry, I still didn't quite understand the question but here is my black when I was also freshening it up.

Just like a 16v, I just made sure that the exhaust cam dowel pin is in the 5 o'clock position and slid the cam gear where the timing marks align against the cam cover on top and between the two cam gears itself.


morgan
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6446 posts [93%]
just be glad your not here, nj

 Re: Q for someone with a stock BT (balmo) » Reply  Edit


thanks, its hard to tell from the pic in the 1st post, but it shown the knock pin at the 2 o'clock position in a different cam gear slot. great to know he isnt the only one to have it different on his motor compared to the manual. thanks balmo, looks like ill tell him to assemble it the same way you have it, and the same way it was during disassembly.

any one else want to double confirm?



haha cali...i got one of you 86's, and your not getting it back.
my 20v in an 86 swap guide
my mess of an 86...
*east coast toyotas forum*
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.
jondee86
Reggae Rules...



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4374 posts [96%]
Wellington, NZ

 Re: Q for someone with a stock BT (morgan) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by morgan »
its more than 5 degrees, look in the pic. theres 3 spokes on the exhaust cam
gear. the one at 6 o'clock has the "5" imprinted on it, the one at 2 o'clock doesnt.
both spokes have grooves for the knock pin on the camshaft though. so thats 120
degrees difference.

Yes... set up the way shown in the pics, it is way more than 5 deg. I was thinking
more along the lines that there could be a second set of timing marks to set the
cams up. Maybe they are on the other side of the cam if you install it with the "5"
towards the head ? Sorry, but I don't have a 20V to check the theory.

Cheers... jondee86



jondee86 has been a member for 735,126 days.

Give a person a fish, they eat for a day. Suggest they search before posting, and they learn a skill for a lifetime.

morgan
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6446 posts [93%]
just be glad your not here, nj

 Re: Q for someone with a stock BT (jondee86) » Reply  Edit


i see what you mean. looks like the manual is wrong.



haha cali...i got one of you 86's, and your not getting it back.
my 20v in an 86 swap guide
my mess of an 86...
*east coast toyotas forum*
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.
balmo




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4927 posts [100%]
Brentwood CA

 Re: Q for someone with a stock BT (morgan) » Reply  Edit


I think i finally got the question. (Im so slow today) No way is the cam pin in the 2 o'clock position. If you remember in a 16v, the intake cam pin is at 2 o'clock and the exhaust cam pin is at 5 o'clock.

If I remembered it correctly, I double checked the timing. And at TDC, the cam lobes on cylinder # 1 should be facing away from each other like this:

with this orientation, the pin on the exhaust should be in the 5 o'clock position.

morgan
Member



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6446 posts [93%]
just be glad your not here, nj

 Re: Q for someone with a stock BT (balmo) » Reply  Edit


thats what i figured, but i wanted to be sure since i have a ST. it makes complete sense, im just suprised that toyota messed the manual up like that. thanks for the pics, i appreciate it.



haha cali...i got one of you 86's, and your not getting it back.
my 20v in an 86 swap guide
my mess of an 86...
*east coast toyotas forum*
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.
ASG14
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20 posts [100%]
Stamford CT

  » Reply  Edit


Thanks for the help guys. Craig posted this to help me.

I just want to confirm I have it all set up right. I'm brand new to this engine so I;m learning as I go. I nearly flipped out thinking the engine (not been installed yet) came in blown after seeing the FSM an how to align it.......








Camry, Boosted? WTF did you do that to a Camry for?

Because it's faster then your Accord now.....

MCV10 - 2MZ-FZE
AE101 - 4A-FE

jondee86
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4374 posts [96%]
Wellington, NZ

 Re: Q for someone with a stock BT (morgan) » Reply  Edit


Just as a bit of (probably useless) information, the TODA exhaust cam gear has
two installation timing marks. One marked "5" and one marked "4". They are on
adjacent teeth, and the "5" is used for the AE101, presumeably meaning "5-valve".
So I guess the "4" stands for "4-valve" use. The same pulley is used for both, but
by installing one tooth apart, the 20V cam installs further advanced than the 16V.

Since the 20V exhaust cam will not be 20 crank degrees more advanced than the
16V, this suggests that the knock pin is indexed differently.<=== bit of speculation
there, and I have no idea why the cams would be indexed differently

Cheers... jondee86



jondee86 has been a member for 735,126 days.

Give a person a fish, they eat for a day. Suggest they search before posting, and they learn a skill for a lifetime.

morgan
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6446 posts [93%]
just be glad your not here, nj

 Re: Q for someone with a stock BT (jondee86) » Reply  Edit


^interesting...



haha cali...i got one of you 86's, and your not getting it back.
my 20v in an 86 swap guide
my mess of an 86...
*east coast toyotas forum*
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.
HASportAE86
IE Gutter Trash



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4096 posts [84%]
Loma Linda CA

 Typo in 20v Factory Service Manual Reply  Edit


Stumbled across this yesterday as I was assembling a bt 20v on the engine stand. I replaced the cam seals, forgot what slot the cam pin went in, so I followed the FSM.....

This in fact is incorrect. You are to align the dowel pin on the exhaust cam WITH the pulley spoke that HAS A "5" and a "dot" on it. Following the FSM will in fact put your exhaust cam advanced 11 teeth and the distributor timing will be way off. At TDC #1, the dowel pin on the exhaust cam should be in about the 5 o'clock location and the slit for the distributor on the opposite side of the cam should be perfectly vertical at 12 o'clock.





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morgan
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6446 posts [93%]
just be glad your not here, nj

  » Reply  Edit


caught this a few months back.
http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=87830



haha cali...i got one of you 86's, and your not getting it back.
my 20v in an 86 swap guide
my mess of an 86...
*east coast toyotas forum*
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.
HASportAE86
IE Gutter Trash



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4096 posts [84%]
Loma Linda CA

 Re: (morgan) » Reply  Edit


sh!t needs to be stickied



Email/Paypal "heyvanilladan@hotmail.com"

SwangBiz Chassis Products
http://forums.club4ag.com/zero...age=1
MFactory Longer T50 5th Gear Group Buy
http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=113077
Loud Pipes Save Lives -Swangbiz

Honda Master Technician/ASE Master Technician

ronny
RnD Office - Ronny



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7077 posts [89%]
Irvine CA

 Re: (HASportAE86) » Reply  Edit


hahah my dumbass followed it and it didnt start..

so i had to recrack open everything and made sure the cam was aligned.. =D good catch



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morgan
Member



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6446 posts [93%]
just be glad your not here, nj

 Re: (HASportAE86) » Reply  Edit


Quote, originally posted by HASportAE86 »
sh!t needs to be stickied

yeah, i was dumbfounded when 2 seperate 20v's i was working on were the correct way and im looking at the manual like ???!...



haha cali...i got one of you 86's, and your not getting it back.
my 20v in an 86 swap guide
my mess of an 86...
*east coast toyotas forum*
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.
oldeskewltoy




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13133 posts [99%]
Portland

  » Reply  Edit


merged, stickied, and title more reflective of the content



Information is POWER... learn the facts!!

http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/ USE it!

I've been wrong before... and at somepoint in time, I'll be wrong again

morgan
Member



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6446 posts [93%]
just be glad your not here, nj

 Re: (oldeskewltoy) » Reply  Edit






haha cali...i got one of you 86's, and your not getting it back.
my 20v in an 86 swap guide
my mess of an 86...
*east coast toyotas forum*
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.
apexi3016
Member

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8 posts [100%]
Lahad Datu Sabah

 Re: Q for someone with a stock BT (morgan) » Reply  Edit


Hi guys,

My brother rebuilt his blacktop 20V, went by the book and faced the exact problem.

Look like the manual is wrong.


jdm86gtz




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711 posts [100%]
Waterford Ireland

  » Reply  Edit


Just rebuilt my silvertop using blacktop cams and there was only one slot for the dowel in the blacktop pulley


morgan
Member



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6446 posts [93%]
just be glad your not here, nj

 Re: (jdm86gtz) » Reply  Edit


lucky you, maybe the euro 20v's only have one slot?



haha cali...i got one of you 86's, and your not getting it back.
my 20v in an 86 swap guide
my mess of an 86...
*east coast toyotas forum*
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.
jdm86gtz




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711 posts [100%]
Waterford Ireland

 Re: (morgan) » Reply  Edit


All 20Vs here are import only. As far as I'm aware the 20V was only sold in Japan and South Africa
Esenpai
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269 posts [100%]
Costa Mesa CA

 Re: Q for someone with a stock BT (morgan) » Reply  Edit


is the BT really an interference motor? wouldn't that make it the only one made by toyota? 0_o I don't see why they'd do that? I can't find anything else other then this thread that says its interference unless its been shaved of course....



86' 86 Hatch- forever incomplete project

86' 86 Hatch-almost as forever incomplete

morgan
Member



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6446 posts [93%]
just be glad your not here, nj

 Re: Q for someone with a stock BT (Esenpai) » Reply  Edit


thats the word. your best bet, ask Jeff aka killer_siller, hes on point with all the stuff like piston to valve clearance etc...im sure he can explain it well.



haha cali...i got one of you 86's, and your not getting it back.
my 20v in an 86 swap guide
my mess of an 86...
*east coast toyotas forum*
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.
Esenpai
Member



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269 posts [100%]
Costa Mesa CA

 Re: Q for someone with a stock BT (morgan) » Reply  Edit


Thanks will do. could greatly influence whether or not I build a bt or st 7ag next year.



86' 86 Hatch- forever incomplete project

86' 86 Hatch-almost as forever incomplete

Esenpai
Member



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269 posts [100%]
Costa Mesa CA

 Re: Q for someone with a stock BT (morgan) » Reply  Edit


Thanks will do. could greatly influence whether or not I build a bt or st 7ag next year.



86' 86 Hatch- forever incomplete project

86' 86 Hatch-almost as forever incomplete

 



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