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 4AGE 20v Garage Annex water blockFirst  1 2 >  Last
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JAVResistance




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 4AGE 20v Garage Annex water block Reply  Edit


Hi, I emailed intecracing.com for information on how the Garage Annex water block works but no answer yet. I don't know if anybody can help figure out how this water block work. I don't know if I can use a thermostat with this setup, and if it can be used how does this work. Will it work just like the stock system? Does this water block have a bypass system or do I really need one?
I was planning to replicate this water block system since its way over my budget. I've considered other setups like using the 4AGE 16v water pump and others but I want to leave the system as stock as possible. I'm not using heaters btw. Any help would be appreciated. Below you can see images of the Garage Annex water block and water necks that I'm planning of using.




jdm86gtz




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Waterford Ireland

  » Reply  Edit


The thermostat is in the top of the alloy block under the OEM inlet on top. There's a bypass inside the alloy block. Only thing I've noticed about this kit is that in any pictures I've seen of it fitted the thermostat is plumbed to the upper radiator hose.
JAVResistance




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 Re: (jdm86gtz) » Reply  Edit


Thanks for the reply. I have another question about this water block, I images below for illustration. The top outlet of the block will be connected to the 'B' side of the port in the picture and the side outlet connects to the 'C' port? If there is a thermostat on the top wouldn't that be the wrong direction from the original route? How is this bypass connected in the block? Is the bypass connected between the two holes of the block?


Original route

gotzoom
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 Re: (JAVResistance) » Reply  Edit


I think their design works just like the factory water block. It was their design that inspired mine.

You are right about the water flow being "backward," but this is where the bypass comes in.

Here's what the bottom of the factory water block looks like:

I've labeled the chambers with the corresponding port letters on the head.

The pic below shows the thermostat chamber and the factory thermostat. I've numbered things here to reduce confusion.

Here's how the factory setup works.

In the bottom picture, when the thermostat is open, water flows from the radiator, through the thermostat and exits on the large port on the left side of the thermostat chamber and into port B on the head. Since water takes the path of least resistance, port B is unused when the thermostat is open.

When the thermostat is closed, water cannot enter into the thermostat chamber, so no water enters from the radiator. Instead, water passes from port B on the head, through the chamber marked B on the water block. It travels through the round hold in the bottom of the thermostat chamber (marked with "2" in the picture,) then travels through the large port on the left side of the thermostat chamber and into port C as normal. This is the action of the bypass. As the water temp increases, the thermostat starts top open. The thermostat plunger (circled on the pic) gets closer to the round hole on the bypass and eventually blocks it off when the thermostat is fully open. This closes the bypass and allows the radiator to enter in to the cooling circuit and cool the water.

Someone that understand fluid dynamics better than me can explain what happens with the heater core. I hope that helps.



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JAVResistance




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 Re: (gotzoom) » Reply  Edit


Thanks for the reply gotzoom great information here hope it helps other people also. I've send you a message on hachiroku.net but I don't know if you've received it.

OK lets see, your information is very understandable on how the factory water block works but I'm still a little confused on how I should fabricate this water block or do the same as Garage Annex one. I've added an image to clarify and see if I've understood correctly.

Water enters first from the radiator through port '1' on the side of the water block and exist port '2'. Water will flows then through the engine head to the water pump and then through the engine block and enters in this case port '3' in the water block and leaves from port '4' back to the radiator.

Where will the thermostat be is this route? And where is the bypass located in the water block?

Modified by JAVResistance at 9:27 PM 3/13/2011

specialdjonez
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yellowknife nt

 Re: (JAVResistance) » Reply  Edit


i have this kit on one of my 20v swaps. and another ready for my other
the thermostat is in between 3 and 4 the top comes off.
the is also a passage between 2 and 3.

email me for more pics specialdjonez at gmail.
got one sittin in parts room

gotzoom
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 Re: (specialdjonez) » Reply  Edit


specialdjonez, can you post a picture of the thermostat chamber? I think that will answer the question how it actually works.

JAVResistance, I didn't get an email that I had a PM waiting there. sorry.

You have the radiator flow reversed in your pic. The inlet side is port 4 and the outlet side is port 1. Water only passes between 2 and 3 when the thermostat is closed (the engine is cold.)

Here are the early Solidworks models of our design. We made some changes to make it easier to machine, but this should give you an idea of what we ended up doing.



BTW, since we deviated significantly from the shape of the factory block, I can't use the factory gasket between the block and the head. I picked up a roll of high temp gasket material from a local auto parts store and cut my gasket out of that material.



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JAVResistance




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 Re: (gotzoom) » Reply  Edit


According to this drawing hot water enters port '3' and cold water leaves port '2' into the head. Is this right?
The fact that the flow of water will be the other way around is a little confusing.


Modified by JAVResistance at 11:58 PM 3/13/2011
gotzoom
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 Re: (JAVResistance) » Reply  Edit


If you have your factory water block, it might be easier to understand if you look at it and imagine what happens when it is all connected.

In your drawing a few posts up, you have the flow direction arrows correct on ports 2 and 3. However, water only flows from 3 to 2 when the engine is cold. When the thermostat opens, it blocks the passage that connects 2 and 3 together and stops the flow through the bypass. Once the thermostat opens, water flows in from the radiator via port 4, passes through the thermostat and into port 2. It then circulates through the engine and passes out through port 1 and back to the radiator.

It took me a few days worth of analysis to understand how things work, so don't feel bad if you're still confused.

In that "coolant system" diagram, you can see the bypass flow in red (the area that the "thermostat half open" arrow points to,) as well. The author has drawn the thermostat in purple and it shows the plunger, so if you can imagine the plunger moving toward the bottom of the drawing as the thermostat heats up, you can see where it will eventually close off the bypass and not allow water to go through any more.



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JAVResistance




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 Re: (gotzoom) » Reply  Edit


Ok here are some pictures I got from a dude earlier today.

If I can see correctly port '3' is connected to port '4' via the thermostat chamber. If water enters port '3' when the thermostat is fully open this would be a counter flow according to the original flow in the drawing above because of the direction the water pump is pumping the water. In the pictures I can also see the bypass port. Is my analysis correct on the photo? I think looking at your design is more logic.

Modified by JAVResistance at 12:18 PM 3/14/2011

specialdjonez
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yellowknife nt

 Re: (JAVResistance) » Reply  Edit


port 4 gose to the to for rad port 1 bottem.

when the thermostat is open it blocks the passage between 2 and 3

JAVResistance




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 Re: (gotzoom) » Reply  Edit


Ok here is a question. What about I built a water block with just a tin bypas passage between the two ports and use an inline thermostat. In this case the bypas will never be closed and will always stay open cold or hot. Here is a drawring I made for ilustration.


gotzoom
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 Re: (JAVResistance) » Reply  Edit


I don't think that will work. No water will ever reach the thermostat to warm it up and cause it to open. My initial design was similar to this, but with no bypass and only a restrictor, rather than a thermostat. I'm building a track-only car, though. You'd need to fashion something that will allow water to go past the thermostat when it is closed, but pass the coolant through the thermostat chamber. Then close off the bypass when the thermostat is open.



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JAVResistance




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 Re: (gotzoom) » Reply  Edit


OK I saw on hachiroku.net in a post you wrote that you are going to use a thermostat from a 2.7L Tundra pickup truck. Do u have the dimensions of this thermostat? Or do you have the lenght of this thermostat open and closed?
gotzoom
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 Re: (JAVResistance) » Reply  Edit


I can measure the factory unit and the Tundra unit for you later. I'll need to stick them in hot water to measure the open length, so it will take me a few minutes.



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JAVResistance




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 Re: (gotzoom) » Reply  Edit


OK thanks that will be highly appreciated, cause I'm planning on fabricating a water block also, almost the same as yours but I need to know the length of the thermostat when it is fully open to close the bypass. I need to know how deep I will be drilling to make the thermostat housing.
gotzoom
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 Re: (JAVResistance) » Reply  Edit


Now that I am looking at these again, the reason for using the Tacoma thermostat is coming back to me. It was the only one that I could find that was considerably more compact than the AE111 unit, had the plunger for the bypass and the outer ring where the gasket goes is the same diameter as the AE111 thermostat. It is considerably shorter, as you can see from the pic below. This means that it cannot be used as a stock replacement in the factory water block. However, since it is the same diameter as the AE111 thermostat, the water neck cover fits it perfectly.

However, since we're fabbing, we can use it.

I measured from the inside of the plate where the gasket goes to the lower edge of the plunger on both thermostats.

The AE111 thermostat opens to a length of 46.8mm.

The Tacoma thermostat opens to a length of 37.5mm.
This measurement might be slightly short, since the thermostat is brand new and starts closing almost immediately when I take it out of the boiling water. The AE111 thermostat is old, so it doesn't close as fast.



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gotzoom
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 Re: (gotzoom) » Reply  Edit


I misspoke about what truck's thermostat I used. In case you missed it in my previous post, the thermostat is from a Tacoma, not a Tundra. I guess I must have Tundra on the brain because I was looking for coils for the 2uzfe engine.



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 Re: (gotzoom) » Reply  Edit


Great information man just what I needed. One other thing do you know where I can buy one of these thermostat from the Tacoma? I use mostly http://www.rockauto.com for my parts buy and sometimes http://www.ebay.com but I don't know if you have a better place. Is there a specific year of the Tacoma that these thermostat comes in?
gotzoom
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 Re: (JAVResistance) » Reply  Edit


The one in the picture is Murray Plus+ part@ 4108. I got it at Kragen/O'Reilley, which is my local auto parts shop. I would imagine that pretty much any auto parts shop near you will have it if those trucks are sold where you are. It might also be called Hilux.

At any rate, the engine is the 3RZ-FE, so I would bet that any truck that has this engine uses the same thermostat.



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JAVResistance




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 Re: (gotzoom) » Reply  Edit


Thanks for the info. In the picture of your design what is this passage for?


gotzoom
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 Re: (JAVResistance) » Reply  Edit


ECU Temp sensor. I'm running a GM sensor that I got from DIY Autotune, since I'm using a Megasquirt 3 as my ECU. We decided it was too much trouble to machine that recess in the top on the final design, so you can see it is flat across the top on the finished product. You'll also notice that I didn't include the gauge cluster temp sensor on the water block, as the factory design has. I ended up making a cover for stock water outlet on the head out of copper and threading a bung in to it for the gauge cluster temp sensor.

I bought an Autometer temp gauge with the matching sensor and used those. It seems that all of the gauge temp senders use pipe threads, so you will need a special tap (~$30) to thread the hole properly. The GM sensor also uses pipe threads, so I bought the correct size pipe thread tap for the ECU temp sensor and used a bung with the same thread size for the gauge cluster temp sensor. This meant only one tap was needed.



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JAVResistance




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 Re: (gotzoom) » Reply  Edit


That looks awesome man. I guess I will be making mine from a whole square block. Hope the guy at work in the machine shop can help me fabricate this.
I have another little problem when my engine was still running before the overhaul and before the engine went into my AE86 a friend of mine took the water neck that covers the thermostat of and welded a block of plate and I think he threw it away back then. I now have to get another water neck. You think this water neck from summit racing can do the work? Problem is they don't give any dimensions.

And here a 3D view http://www.summitracing.com/pa...ype=7

gotzoom
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 Re: (JAVResistance) » Reply  Edit


I doubt that will fit. Do they give the thermostat diameter that it is meant to fit? Summit carries mostly standard measurement stuff for US make cars, so I would be surprised if they have a metric water neck. I bet you can get one from someone on here. Just post in the "where to buy" forum



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JAVResistance




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 Re: (gotzoom) » Reply  Edit


Can you help me with some dimensions of your design?


gotzoom
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 Re: (JAVResistance) » Reply  Edit


If there is enough interest, we plan(ed) to produce our water block and sell it, so I can't give away all of my secrets. We tried to generate interest in making an initial run of 10 units, but no one was willing to put their money where their desire is. If i can get 5 people to put down a $100 deposit (for the block costing $250US,) I'll do an initial run of 10 with roughly a 60 day lead-time.

If you plan to use the factory water necks and therefore, a thermostat of stock diameter, you should let those be your guide on the dimensions. We basically designed everything around the Tacoma thermostat and thermostat cover/water neck. If you plan to use the same thermostat, you have all the dimensions you need.

If you want to have a rectangle shaped block, it will be far simpler to make than my design. The depth (dimension 1) is the width of the upper water neck base. If you rotate it so the tabs don't stick all the way out, you can use a slightly shallower depth. This is what we did. The height (dimension 2) = the depth of the thermostat + the radiator return port height + 2X wall thickness for the radiator return port (~1/4in/ea.) It all depends on what thermostat you end up using, though.

Realistically, dimension 1 can't be much less than 3" and dimension 2 can't be much less than 3.25."



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 Re: (gotzoom) » Reply  Edit


Ok I bought the Tacoma thermostat today and now I just need a thermostat housing. I posted something about the 20v housing on the forums but no reply yet. You think the 1991 TOYOTA COROLLA 4AGE thermostat housing will work? Here is a picture.


gotzoom
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 Re: (JAVResistance) » Reply  Edit


IIRC, I don't think that water neck will fit AE111 stuff. It took me about an hour of comparing different Toyota thermostats at my local auto parts shop before I found that the Tacoma unit has the same diameter as the stock AE111 thermostat.

The flange that the gasket goes over is 56mm in diameter on the AE111 and Tacoma thermostat. If the 91 Corolla thermostat is not that size, the water neck won't work. Even if the thermostat is the same size, the bolt tabs may not line up.

Another alternative would be to buy the 91 Corolla water neck and thermostat and design your water block to work with those pieces. I'm not sure if this thermostat has the plunger to seal the bypass, though.

I had complete AE111 cooling stuff, so I used what I had. Also, the sensor port on the water neck is for the radiator fan switch, in case you're wondering which one that is.



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 Re: (gotzoom) » Reply  Edit


I don't think the bolt tabs will be of trouble since I'm fabricating the block and tapping in new holes. My concern is the distance from the plate where the gasket goes to the top of the thermostat and the diameter of the top part.
gotzoom
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 Re: (JAVResistance) » Reply  Edit


As long as you match the thermostat with the cover/water neck, I think you should be fine.



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