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 4AGE Ignitor module, US /vs/ EU differences? [Archived]
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Red




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9661 posts [78%]

 4AGE Ignitor module, US /vs/ EU differences? Reply  Edit


Before I do something radical like sell my car...

It will fire up but not run. That's a whole other furball discussed elsewhere, and I'm fairly certain that the problem is going to be in the "VAST" ignition system. Hopefully the ignitor/coil set, not the distributor or ECU.

[footnote: Problem eventually solved with a chafed wire between the airflow sensor and the ECU.]

But for here and now, THE question is, are the ignitor modules for the EU and US version of the 4AGE substantially the same?

I see the US part, if you can find a third-party module, is nearly $350 while the EU version is under $60, and if the only difference is a tweak in the dwell/timing aimed at emissions....hell for $60 I'd just buy the EU part, swap it in, and call that cheap diagnostics compared to all the other misery this problem has given me.

The parts LOOK plug compatible. They're both from a less-than-prime 3rd party supplier, but the $700 Toyota part is discontinued, and yes, I've asked on the forum but no one has the exact same part number that my 6/85 4AGE was built with.

So...Come on lady luck, I've got some dice to roll. Any advice on how the ignitor modules (which tell the ECU dwell/timing information, not just gross spark) might be different?

Off topic but on the larger issue: it's a hot start not start issue beaten to death elsewhere. Fuel pump runs (pressure unknown), EFI and COR relays and all that supplying power to the pump 100%. Engine will fire up, stumble and die or goose to 2500rpm then stumble and die, either way, stumble and die. And up until July when the wx got over 90F and stayed over 90F, the damn thing ran like a clock. 3000 highway miles without a hiccup in the three months before that, the only reason for the problem is the HEAT. Same thing happened last summer, went away with cooler wx, but seems worse now.

It shouldn't be heat-related if it is the ignitor. "Shouldn't" since the whole engine bay is near 200F when it is on the highway all day--and then it restarted just fine. Something in the ambient temperature, outside of the car, not the engine bay, not the passenger compartment, not the fuel tank, is the problem.

But we don't have an "ambient outside air temperature" sensor to go bad, do we? That would be an AFM function, and bypassing that doesn't help either. Bypassing the cold start injector also makes no difference. Didn't I say, FURBALL?!

Tomorrow I try to negotiate some scope time, it's either that, throw parts at it, or...there's gonna be another GT-S on the market. (And I'd hate to do that, don't encourage me.<G>)<br /><br />
Modified by Red at 7:02 AM 12/31/2012

Modified by Red at 7:03 AM 12/31/2012



--Original owner, '85 Corolla GTS. Will trade for a Cadillac-Gage V150, or a Ford GT, in similar condition.


VitriumGTS




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4730 posts [96%]
San Jose/San Diego CA

  » Reply  Edit


I believe US/CA ae86s are the only 4AGs that used the VAST system:

igniter will be different on MAP sensored euro spec (LHD and RHD) ae86s because all RPM and sync signals go straight to the ECU. Whereas the US/CA ones the G signal goes to the ECU, while the Ne signal stops at the igniter before going to the ECU.


Quick sanity check. When it stops starting, I would slap a spark tester on a lead, disable fuel and remote crank it to see if there is any spark from the coil, then each cylinder. The coil just might be getting old and getting sensitive to temps

If spark is all confirmed in every location, i would jump that fuel pump connector so you get fuel all the time and go from there (AFM fuel pump trigger being a culprit)

good luck



My RHDJapan.com receipt said: "Your order # is: 100001986". The AE86 gods really are looking out for me.
Red




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9661 posts [78%]

 Re: (VitriumGTS) » Reply  Edit


Ah, Merde! as the french market version would say.

So we're the only ones blessed with VAST and the bogus fake-spark-starts-the-car system as well as the AFM instead of MAP?

I could see that shooting down the whole idea. (I did email the 3rd party supplier to ask if they'd share some real information but don't expect much.)

I'm handicapped by having to work solo at odd hours (grab it while you can) so cranking while looking at ignition wires is a bit difficult. Where can you hook up an underhood remote start button on these anyhow?

This weekend I hooked up a test lamp to the fuel pump connection, it stayed lit all the time that I had the key on, so I'm fairly certain the fuel pump IS geting power in all modes at all times that it is supposed to. Don't know if that's full flow--but it IS getting power and it is making gentle pump noises.

That's one reason I'd like to get some scope time on the car. I actually have a Tektronics that I could probably burn out, ergh, use on the ignition system, but it too is a thousand+ miles away.

If the Ne and G signals are somehow fubar out of the dizzy, that could mean new dizzy? As opposed to ignitor?

I'm going to try a little bargaining at a local Toyota dealer this week. He's got a "one hour free diagnostic" offer. I'm gonna to see if he's interested in borrowing a nice shiny AE88 to display next to the FT86 this winter, in exchange for some mercy on fixing mine.

SURELY that's got to be worth pocketchange to a sharp marketing man, right? Should be able to parley that into an event that's worth a fast $50,000 worth of TV and newspaper advertising for his dealership, if he's any good at that.

Surely?!



--Original owner, '85 Corolla GTS. Will trade for a Cadillac-Gage V150, or a Ford GT, in similar condition.
Bluekouki86




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1493 posts [100%]

  » Reply  Edit


The US VAST ignitors take the VR analog signal from the distributor and convert it to a square wave digital signal before sending it to the ecu. I would get a fuel pressure gauge and tape it to the windshield, then drive around to see if the pressure falls of when acting up.
Jeff Lange




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3143 posts [99%]

  » Reply  Edit


Mildly interesting:

A couple of other markets used the same igntiion system/AFM setup we did. One of those was France, as well as the Middle East.

Jeff

Red




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9661 posts [78%]

 Re: (Jeff Lange) » Reply  Edit


So what did the "other" cars get? My impression was that the ignitor module somehow held the dwell curves and other information which the ECU itself would not have onboard, and there are certainly many different part numbes for the ignitors.

Did the other cars not get the VAST system at all, and use a conventional distributor with mechanical points?

Were the French asking for the US version? Or was it dumped on them? And others? Or were they seduced by the concept of a California-legal emissions system? <VBG>



--Original owner, '85 Corolla GTS. Will trade for a Cadillac-Gage V150, or a Ford GT, in similar condition.
Jeff Lange




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3143 posts [99%]

  » Reply  Edit


There are really only 2 types of igniters, with or without VAST. The differing part numbers are due to different suppliers and they all change up to 2 final part numbers.

89620-12270 - Non-VAST Igniter
89620-12290 - VAST Igniter (Manufactured by Denso; Used on all years)
89620-12310 - VAST Igniter (Manufactured by Toshiba; Supercedes to 89620-12290; Only used on some 1985 models)

I'm not sure why some markets got the VAST/AFM setup, although now that I looked up the part numbers it appears I was wrong about which markets had VAST. France, Sweden and Switzerland (and of course North America) had the VAST setup.

Countries without VAST used the same setup as Japan with a higher resolution distributor pickup and MAP-based EFI. None used a conventional distributor or points.

Jeff

Red




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9661 posts [78%]

 Re: (Jeff Lange) » Reply  Edit


I thought the ignitor also changed to match the engine type, i.e. bluetop and redtop will have different ignitors, to provide the correct dwell timing for each different engine, matching different compression, etc.



--Original owner, '85 Corolla GTS. Will trade for a Cadillac-Gage V150, or a Ford GT, in similar condition.
Jeff Lange




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3143 posts [99%]

  » Reply  Edit


I only included AE86 igniters in that post. There are a ton of reasons there would be different part numbers, mainly due to some of them coming with or without the mounting bracket or differing connector, so they are different for pretty much every car even if they are the same electronically.

That being said, the AE86 did have differing compression ratios as well (some countries came with 10.0:1 versus the 9.4:1 we and Japan had), and they still used the same igniters.

Also, the AW11 MR2 VAST igniter stayed the same from 84-89 despite the engine management changing in 88 (bumped up 3hp from 112hp to 115hp, and changed to the larger-internals bottom end, head and compression stayed the same).

Also the AE92 GT-S VAST igniter stayed the same from 88-91 (90-91 being smallport high compression), despite the 88-89 having the same engine as the 88-89 MR2, which used the same igniter as the 85-87 MR2 which had the same engine as the 85-87 VAST AE86.

I guess in the end of all that, my point is that pretty much all VAST 4A-GE igniters seem to share approximately the same dwell time, etc. There is just a lot of overlap and the part numbers change due to chassis mounting position.

Verifying that conclusion would take some testing of course, but to me it seems most sensible.

Jeff

Red




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9661 posts [78%]

 Re: (Jeff Lange) » Reply  Edit


Yes, but if we went to Toyota and took hostages, Toyota might do the testing for us.

Much easier than trying to obtain parts and do the testing, no?

Might be able to get a lot of the "??? were they thinking?" questions answered at the same time, and hostages only need water for the first three weeks or so. Kinda like house plants. <G>



--Original owner, '85 Corolla GTS. Will trade for a Cadillac-Gage V150, or a Ford GT, in similar condition.
 



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